Maudlin of the Well members, read! (or ex-members)

Firedwarf

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Oct 14, 2002
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Yeah..err..I'll just jump right into it.

I've been thinking about majoring in music and pursuing it as a career. My mom :)P) tells me that money will most likely become an issue.

So..err..I was wondering what the members of Maudlin of the Well do for a day job or whatever (assuming you have one) or if you can support yourself decently based on the money from MOTW.

And if you're comfortable sharing this, I'd like to know how much you guys earn from the MOTW thing.

I'm asking MOTW because I think that they're well known in the metal scene. If my band ever turns out to be as popular as MOTW, I'll be happy. :p

But..yeah, thanks. ^_^
 
what lizard said, but also realize that many of the people from bands you listen to still hold down day jobs when not on the road. Really, the only way a professional musician can make decent money is by playing live and being on tour. All the people I've known to be making a go at it are constantly on tour. And that's how you sell more records, too.
Things are a bit different in the metal world where people are more likely to buy records from reviews since the bands aren't as likely to tour, but those numbers probably aren't going to pay the rent.

being said, I tried to make a go at it myself and kinda missed my window of opportunity. There's too many responsibilities holding me down to make a serious 100% effort again, but it can't hurt for you to try.
 
my guess is that one member or ex-member will answer this frankly enough that he will piss off the others who prefer to be more on the d-and-l about how much money they make.

i do believe avi is right--you can really only make money by touring. which motw doesn't do. i don't know how much they make and, if they don't want me to know, i don't really care...but i assume none of them are rolling in dough from album and XXXL-tshirt sales.
 
one of my roommates is in a successful band--successful in that they pay their individual rents by the band's income, pay for their own tours and album recordings, pay for buying and keeping up 15-passenger van, and sometimes work between zero and twenty hours a week at a video store for spending money.

they play pop-rock, not metal. they play colleges (which pay MAD money). they play parties if they're big and the money's right. i think they can make thousands of dollars per show. do you know how big an experimental or metal band has to be to make several thousand dollars for a show?
 
and: allowing yourself to avoid becoming so anxious that you leap at the first offer and find yourself in the contractual grip of a blood and money sucking managment and recording contract. if I had a dollar for every sad story of a musician who looked around after 10 years of reasonable success and said, wow, I thought I was doing this just for the music, but where the hell's my money...

a guaranteed entertaining but heart breaking read is Without You: the Tragic Story of Badfinger. If you aren't familiar with them, they were a rather talented bunch of Beatles' influenced guys who had a fair measure of success (Without You [yes the mariah carey hit], Baby Blue, Come and Get it, No Matter What...Day after Day) but were victimized at many turns by their manager. two members of the band eventually hanged themselves (in separate instances) out of despair and hopelessness.
 
Firedwarf: To give you an idea, Chuck Schuldiner once said that he didn't make enough money from Death to move out of his parents' house until after Indivual Thought Patterns was released. I think that was it. It may have even been Symbolic. And Death, in the metal world, was a pretty damn popular band. They were on MTV (not that that means much) with their third album. IVP was their fifth.

I don't think I'll be pissing anyone off when I say that my gross income from motW is probably between -$1000 and -$2000. Every bit of income the band has had has gone right back into buying equipment, studio time, gas money, etc. And all of us have chipped in to pay recording expenses at one time another, so the band has cost us all money. And of course you do it cause you love it. This has been the situation with every band I've ever been in, and I'm pretty comfortable with it. I can't picture myself not making music, even if it's not what I do for a living.

I haven't worked in a while, but come July I'll be returning to my old job at a publishing company.

As to bad record deals, Steve Albini has laid out the awful situation many start-up bands find themselves in very eloquently.
Here's the link to his rundown.

Just for fun here's the final numbers from his article. This is a deal with a quarter-million dollar advance and huge sales numbers.

Advance: $ 250,000 Manager's cut: $ 37,500 Legal fees: $ 10,000 Recording Budget: $ 150,000 Producer's advance: $ 50,000 Studio fee: $ 52,500 Drum Amp, Mic and Phase "Doctors": $ 3,000 Recording tape: $ 8,000 Equipment rental: $ 5,000 Cartage and Transportation: $ 5,000 Lodgings while in studio: $ 10,000 Catering: $ 3,000 Mastering: $ 10,000 Tape copies, reference CDs, shipping tapes, misc. expenses: $ 2,000 Video budget: $ 30,000 Cameras: $ 8,000 Crew: $ 5,000 Processing and transfers: $ 3,000 Off-line: $ 2,000 On-line editing: $ 3,000 Catering: $ 1,000 Stage and construction: $ 3,000 Copies, couriers, transportation: $ 2,000 Director's fee: $ 3,000 Album Artwork: $ 5,000 Promotional photo shoot and duplication: $ 2,000 Band fund: $ 15,000 New fancy professional drum kit: $ 5,000 New fancy professional guitars [2]: $ 3,000 New fancy professional guitar amp rigs [2]: $ 4,000 New fancy potato-shaped bass guitar: $ 1,000 New fancy rack of lights bass amp: $ 1,000 Rehearsal space rental: $ 500 Big blowout party for their friends: $ 500 Tour expense [5 weeks]: $ 50,875 Bus: $ 25,000 Crew [3]: $ 7,500 Food and per diems: $ 7,875 Fuel: $ 3,000 Consumable supplies: $ 3,500 Wardrobe: $ 1,000 Promotion: $ 3,000 Tour gross income: $ 50,000 Agent's cut: $ 7,500 Manager's cut: $ 7,500 Merchandising advance: $ 20,000 Manager's cut: $ 3,000 Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000 Publishing advance: $ 20,000 Manager's cut: $ 3,000 Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000 Record sales: 250,000 @ $12 =
$3,000,000 Gross retail revenue Royalty: [13% of 90% of retail]:
$ 351,000 Less advance: $ 250,000 Producer's points: [3% less $50,000 advance]:
$ 40,000 Promotional budget: $ 25,000 Recoupable buyout from previous label: $ 50,000  Net royalty: $ -14,000 Record company income:

Record wholesale price: $6.50 x 250,000 =
$1,625,000 gross income Artist Royalties: $ 351,000 Deficit from royalties: $ 14,000 Manufacturing, packaging and distribution: @ $2.20 per record: $ 550,000 Gross profit: $ 7l0,000 The Balance Sheet: This is how much each player got paid at the end of the game.

Record company: $ 710,000 Producer: $ 90,000 Manager: $ 51,000 Studio: $ 52,500 Previous label: $ 50,000 Agent: $ 7,500 Lawyer: $ 12,000 Band member net income each: $ 4,031.25 The band is now 1/4 of the way through its contract, has made the music industry more than 3 million dollars richer, but is in the hole $14,000 on royalties. The band members have each earned about 1/3 as much as they would working at a 7-11, but they got to ride in a tour bus for a month. The next album will be about the same, except that the record company will insist they spend more time and money on it. Since the previous one never "recouped," the band will have no leverage, and will oblige. The next tour will be about the same, except the merchandising advance will have already been paid, and the band, strangely enough, won't have earned any royalties from their T-shirts yet. Maybe the T-shirt guys have figured out how to count money like record company guys. Some of your friends are probably already this fucked.
 
fyi, that famous albini run-down is kind of a worse-case-scenario and things have changed a bit since it was published, but the main points still remain mostly the same.

but I still say fuck it and try. better to do that than to never know what could've happened. I learned all my lessons the hard way by making mistakes, getting screwed and so on and so forth. Towards the end of the band I was in, we were just about to start breaking even and figuring out the business ends of things, but personal problems screwed it up.
 
Yeah Albini's thing is a little glib, but it does serve to illustrate how many expenses (even if some of the ones he lists are totally avoidable and frivolous) can demolish what seems like a great deal. And it also shows how record labels keep themselves from taking a bath if the album tanks....

My point of view is totally from the "never expecting to make money from this" side of things.....

Avi, what band were you in?
 
well i have no idea when i will live off of music but for the time being i am still trying. i mean i knew what i was getting into when i read that the guys in Nevermore just quit their dayjobs after Dreaming Neon Black was released.

i don't play music to get rich right now. we make jackshit in royalties and frankly sam is right; my income totally goes back into my music alot of times. i just got a decent tax refund this year and most of it is coming out to help pay for my recording dates in july. also we have all put some money into the new recording and we will be putting more in to finish it. thats the way it has gone for us and it doesn't bother me because its so worth it in my opinion.

my day job is pretty cool. i am a computer guy in a financial aid office. its not what i want to do for the rest of my life but they are really flexible with my schedule and they support me musically, i.e. giving me the time off without hassle to go record or do gigs. Also its at berklee college fo music and i am starting to learn i work with tons of other musicians so i get to make friends in the music scene even if its not exactly my thing.

i want to live off music but who knows when that will happen. for now all we can do is put 110% of our efforts into doing what we can with maudlin with the time we have. i know i am satisfied so far. but not satisfied to the point that i don't want to keep reaching for our big goals.
 
yeah Firedwarf - everyone in our band has put in more money than we've made. I can say with some confidence that the total amount of income we've received from motW since we began is just about $1000 - $1100. The total amount of money I personally have spent on it is literally dozens of times more than that (I'm in a lot of debt).

But I don;t want you to think it's so bleak - speaking again from a personal standpoint, I did major in music in college, and now I have a day job in computers which is actually a pretty cool job. I don't hate going to work, although idealistically I would have the freedom to do music all the time without having to give away 60 hours a week.

Point is, i have a pretty good job, I have lots of cool stuff, and I'm pretty happy. Another thing you can keep in mind is that your bachelor's degree isn't as important as you may think. Graduate degrees are the lucrative ones, and you can always get a graduate degree in a subject you didn't even touch in undergrad.

I say do what you love.
 
This is a tough decision. I had to decide between going to art school or just getting an engineering degree. Where I sit right now I think I made the right choice. I'm still doing art, oil paintings for the most part. I'm not selling at the moment but I plan on doing it in the next few years. Plus I also have a little project studio in my apt where I'm recording some music. The engineering degree gives me the financial freedom (well not right now, I'm like semi-retired. But not by choice) to do this shit as a hobby. READ AGAIN, as a hobby. I will say though that there are times I wish I would have gone the other direction, but I decided to go for the money.
 
my old band was called The Receivers. we started out as sort of a punk band before evolving more towards the power-pop/rock side of things. toured a bunch (mostly) out west, put out some records, blah blah. Some of what we did was decent, some wasn't, but yeah - I learned a lot. Anyhow, I have our entire discography up for download if anyone is interested: http://www.itsatrap.com/receivers/discog.html
 
I think I'm only about $200 in the hole from being in maudlin. I have a cushy desk job whereI post all day long and get paid fairly well, have good benefits and ample vacation time. Of yours I get no actual satisfaction from my job, but it does leave me with the time and energy to do other things. Ideally I would like to be getting [paid to do something I love but right now compromise is unavoidable. I am content but there is much room for improvement.
 
that albini thing is pretty hilarious. well, hilarious in that i can see him picking it apart like that- but in all actuality, his point is definitely well-founded. the death analogy was great too, sam.

in my experience, the money you "make" from royalties is not always what you get. usually, it's in the record contract that whatever royalties the band makes from cd sales (which is usually like 10% of the cd price) automatically goes back to the label to pay for whatever money they dished out for the recording/mixing/mastering, so if the recording budget is huge, and the label is a stickler for payment, the band may never see any royalties and actually end up owing the label money. not to mention all those other fees that albini mentioned that come up when you're a bigger name act.

as for the music major thing- i'd like to point out that just majoring in a "lucritive" field like computer programming doesn't necessarily guarantee you a job right out of college. i have friends who graduated from reputable schools (like Illinois @ Champaign-Urbana) with computer degrees who haven't found jobs in over a year. and once you get that first job and put in a year or so, very few future interviewing employers will look at where you went to college or what you majored in. they may ask "oh, you majored in music? why?" but mostly what they're interested in is experience. so just because you major in music doesn't mean you're branded a non-productive member of society.

from my end of it: i wish i had taken the extra year in college to do the dual major program and gotten a degree in music. that's something you could always do, if the school you're attending offers a similar program.
 
No money in music = a good thing for music as an artform

:)
 
Me personally, i'm doing a bachelor in computing, and i guess that will initially where i try to make a living, depending on how much i like it!

But if with a job i don't have time to do music, then the job will go and i'll find something else. There are lots of pointless things in life, and having a job so that you can afford to live so that you can go and do your job...... well it's a stupid cycle i'd like to avoid. Rather like the people who go to work so that they can afford to buy fancy cars to go to work in.

But luckily for me i'm not so materialistic with most things, i couldnt give a shit what couch im sitting on, or how nice the carpet/curtains look. And i certainly have no desire to ever buy any decent car unless i'm rich. I guess such things are a good thing as it's a number of expenses the average person has that i won't, instead my money will all go towards supporting my music.

I do plan on taking my music beyond being a hobby, and judging by people's reactions to my band and to my solo project i think i have a good chance of getting somewhere. I am under no illusions of ever making much money from it though.

My first gig for my band is in exactly a week (very nervous! it's being put on DVD! 8 digital cameras! for a first gig! ahh). Here's my cash flow for the next week and previous week.
- New Strings: $20
- Jack Input repair on guitar: $30
- New Strap: $20
- New Lead: $25
- Petrol to get to venue: $40
- other expenses (eg alcohol, food, picks) $??
+ Expected earnings from gig: $30?

So all the values are tiny compared to the figures established bands will deal with, but i think it's a sign of things to come!
 
Thanks a lot. I didn't expect to get all these honest responses.

I think I will end up doing something similar. Get a computer job (I've always been good with computers) and major in music and get a band together and whatnot. It would be excellent to make a living off the band, but now I realize that it's not the most realistic idea.

Tentative plans, but we'll see.

Thanks again. ^^