Money and Philosophy

speed

Member
Nov 19, 2001
5,192
26
48
Visit site
I ask this philosophical (and I mean philosophical, not practical) question: Can contemporary man live free and unfettered from money as a form of exchange?

Would it be possible, to have a working society, where the acquisition of money is not the sole aim and goal? Would persons of skill and intelligence, still seek higher positions without the allure of material gain?


P.S. I have my doubts; at the same time, I wish there was a better way. It would be nice if money wasnt the sole decider of so many things in life--for americans especially.
 
Do you consider the barter system as another means? Or do you consider this the same idea?
 
I think the greater problem is not the currency per se, but the rationalizing thinking behind it that runs to mathematical limits and reduces the world into states of efficiency, the very essence of “logic” and technology.

Could we live without "money"? Probably only on a very small scale (population) as is the historical case. As soon as direct exchange of goods becomes unfeasible or psychology comes into the mix (how to quantify demand or desire?), some sort of abstraction for energy becomes necessary.

speed said:
Would it be possible, to have a working society, where the acquisition of money is not the sole aim and goal? Would persons of skill and intelligence, still seek higher positions without the allure of material gain?
I think it is a mistake to view money and goods solely in terms of "materialism", that people lust after them for petty acquisition. Marx, and later psychoanalysis, have effectively revealed the complexity here (commodities, fetish, consumption, signifiers, labor, energy, etc.).

Money is an abstract placeholder for energy, power, and potential, both physical and psychological. Is it possible to talk about “overcoming” drives for these phenomena with a straight face? Is money still the problem or is it something more fundamental to the human condition?
 
Justin S. said:
I think the greater problem is not the currency per se, but the rationalizing thinking behind it that runs to mathematical limits and reduces the world into states of efficiency, the very essence of “logic” and technology.

Could we live without "money"? Probably only on a very small scale (population) as is the historical case. As soon as direct exchange of goods becomes unfeasible or psychology comes into the mix (how to quantify demand or desire?), some sort of abstraction for energy becomes necessary.


I think it is a mistake to view money and goods solely in terms of "materialism", that people lust after them for petty acquisition. Marx, and later psychoanalysis, have effectively revealed the complexity here (commodities, fetish, consumption, signifiers, labor, energy, etc.).

Money is an abstract placeholder for energy, power, and potential, both physical and psychological. Is it possible to talk about “overcoming” drives for these phenomena with a straight face? Is money still the problem or is it something more fundamental to the human condition?

I do my best to live outside the system. most of my money goes to my music and the grocery store... gas lately too. But we have a garden, chickens, a well, our own septic... on acreage... (soon to be more acreage and more animals) I homeschool my kids, I have my own tshirts made and don't shop unless I absolutely have to. I still wear the same levi's I've had for 10 years.

I think eventually money will not hold it's traditional "Value" to people and we'll go back to a simpler way of living. But until then, all we can do is try to learn to live outside the system as best we can. The more we feed it, the bigger it becomes.
 
I think people could easily live away from money.
But the big decider here is does society (as a whole) want to let us live away from money?
Think of how many companies and groups are constantly trying to get your money, getting you to spend.
Even if we wanted to stop being dependent on money and live a different life ,like 3200 describes, would it work.
I suspect if people pulled away from money at a large scale, those controlling it would try to make us more reliable on it. Simple goods would be made more expensive, you'd be charged extra for every little thing you did.

I mean look at it this way:
An African farmer can earn £200 a year and live (maybe not a happy life) for that year. Granted he is not in a healthy condition but if he can live off so littel why can't anyone else?
Why does it need to cost me £10,000 a year to live as low as possible in the UK, but he can live as low as possible in Africa for far less.
It's society that decides how dependent we are on it, i'm sure we could live without it enough enough people were for the change.
 
Lord SteveO said:
I think people could easily live away from money.
But the big decider here is does society (as a whole) want to let us live away from money?
Think of how many companies and groups are constantly trying to get your money, getting you to spend.
Even if we wanted to stop being dependent on money and live a different life ,like 3200 describes, would it work.
I suspect if people pulled away from money at a large scale, those controlling it would try to make us more reliable on it. Simple goods would be made more expensive, you'd be charged extra for every little thing you did.

I mean look at it this way:
An African farmer can earn £200 a year and live (maybe not a happy life) for that year. Granted he is not in a healthy condition but if he can live off so littel why can't anyone else?
Why does it need to cost me £10,000 a year to live as low as possible in the UK, but he can live as low as possible in Africa for far less.
It's society that decides how dependent we are on it, i'm sure we could live without it enough enough people were for the change.

I totally agree.
 
Justin S. said:
I think the greater problem is not the currency per se, but the rationalizing thinking behind it that runs to mathematical limits and reduces the world into states of efficiency, the very essence of “logic” and technology.

Could we live without "money"? Probably only on a very small scale (population) as is the historical case. As soon as direct exchange of goods becomes unfeasible or psychology comes into the mix (how to quantify demand or desire?), some sort of abstraction for energy becomes necessary.


I think it is a mistake to view money and goods solely in terms of "materialism", that people lust after them for petty acquisition. Marx, and later psychoanalysis, have effectively revealed the complexity here (commodities, fetish, consumption, signifiers, labor, energy, etc.).

Money is an abstract placeholder for energy, power, and potential, both physical and psychological. Is it possible to talk about “overcoming” drives for these phenomena with a straight face? Is money still the problem or is it something more fundamental to the human condition?

Nicely done; you've moved this conversation ahead and into deeper realms.
 
3200 said:
I do my best to live outside the system. most of my money goes to my music and the grocery store... gas lately too. But we have a garden, chickens, a well, our own septic... on acreage... (soon to be more acreage and more animals) I homeschool my kids, I have my own tshirts made and don't shop unless I absolutely have to. I still wear the same levi's I've had for 10 years.

I think eventually money will not hold it's traditional "Value" to people and we'll go back to a simpler way of living. But until then, all we can do is try to learn to live outside the system as best we can. The more we feed it, the bigger it becomes.

I admire your effort so please do not take offense at the following criticisms.

To be frank, living outside the "system" is impossible. Often, the idea that one can escape it is grounded upon a very limited idea of its scale and scope.

The produce and animals you have are most likely not native, and so have been distributed and made available to you via large companies. Even if you bought them from your neighbor, he got them from somewhere else, etc.

The well and septic system- designed and manufactured by whom? What materials went into its construction? Even if it required only a simple hammer, did you harvest and shape the wood, mine and forge the steel?

You own land? To Whom did you pay money to acquire it? What bank did those funds circulate through? Most likely, you pay taxes on it, and there is a property value estimate. This estimate is affordable to you because the majority of the 6+ billion people on the planet are housed in highly planned urban areas. This system allows there to be "open spaces".

To expand it even further, you are typing to me sitting at a computer, sending data through the internet in the English language- a language that has formed over centuries with inherent limitations and conceptual bias. The power of acculturation, "the system", cannot be overestimated or escaped.
 
Justin S. said:
I admire your effort so please do not take offense at the following criticisms.

No offense taken. Please don't take offense to my rebuttle.

Fair enough? I agree, not everything here was done outside the system. That's why I didn't say that I "DO" live outside the system. I said I try to live OUTSIDE it as much as possible.



To be frank, living outside the "system" is impossible. Often, the idea that one can escape it is grounded upon a very limited idea of its scale and scope.

The produce and animals you have are most likely not native, and so have been distributed and made available to you via large companies. Even if you bought them from your neighbor, he got them from somewhere else, etc.

actaully that's not correct. I have native Texas chickens, a breed from a breeder who's family has done indigenous chickens here for over 175 years. My garden is grown from seeds from plants taken from my grandfathers garden he took over from his grandmother.

The well and septic system- designed and manufactured by whom? What materials went into its construction? Even if it required only a simple hammer, did you harvest and shape the wood, mine and forge the steel?

That is true but I am NOT on any city water or sewage. That's a start. I wouldn't need to have a spec septic if I chose not to. I live in an unrestricted area. I could poop in the yard if I wanted to.

You own land? To Whom did you pay money to acquire it? What bank did those funds circulate through? Most likely, you pay taxes on it, and there is a property value estimate. This estimate is affordable to you because the majority of the 6+ billion people on the planet are housed in highly planned urban areas. This system allows there to be "open spaces".

You are not familiar with Texas I suppose. Though I did go through a bank, the land I live on has been here the way it is since prehistoric times... much of it untouched and covered with fossils. The ranch was a part of Mexico that was won by the Republic Of Texas and stolen by the US long before any of the major cities even had the populations you suggest. Trust me, urban areas don't make anything easier on us. In fact, they make it harder. People from my area feed, cloth and support those cities on levels that might blow your mind. Those city systems do not "Allow" open spaces here in Texas. Open spaces were here first and will remain here when the cities are gone. Thinking other wise would be like believing a baby gave birth to it's parents.

To expand it even further, you are typing to me sitting at a computer, sending data through the internet in the English language- a language that has formed over centuries with inherent limitations and conceptual bias. The power of acculturation, "the system", cannot be overestimated or escaped.

I speak english because white people killed everyone in my family up until my grandfather. We had to speak english and blend i with the whites to survive. So I was never honored with the opportunity to learn Choctaw or Cherokee or even gaelic for that matter. Those are the only heritages I have. Both were slaughtered by english speaking xtians.

I use a computer. I never said that I am 100% withdrawn from "The System".

BUT... I'll bet you every cent I own that if cities, electricity, society and everything in modern life as we know it was to shut down at 2pm today... I'd still be cooking dinner, having water... and everything I need to sustain the life of my family and loved ones. Fuck the system.

As for Taxes... I don't pay em. I'm exempt. I even get back earned income credit for the money I spent on taxible items throughout the year. In fact, I have so far removed myself from The System that until last week when my sister in law bought dishnetwork, we hadn't watched TV or cable in our home for over 5 years. I was against cable BUT since my brother in law came back from serving in Iraq to be wiped out by Katrina they have moved in with us. I don't think it's fair to force my lifestyle down their throat. So now we have TV.

Does this post kinda give you a better idea of what I meant by "I try to live outside the system as much as I can"??
 
"Can contemporary man live free and unfettered from money as a form of exchange?"

Well what solution would you propose - if it were to be a (Dare I say it) Communist type arrangement; by which I mean, everyone does their share and gets what they need for free in return. e.g; The Doctor heals people, the Mechanic fixes cars, Farmers farm etc and everyone gets what they need - The Farmer provides food, gets free healthcare and free Services on his car.

IMO this would not work - for example, Right now what I want more than anything is a car. The only thing stopping me is lack of money. If there was no money, then everyone my age would want a car; but who gets the Lexus? Who gets the Merc? Who gets the BMW? Who ends up with a Lada?
Who gets the Mansion at the end of the road? Do we then have to start saying - "He's a Doctor, and heals people so he gets the Mansion", what about the Farmer? Without him no-one gets to eat. But the Doctor had to go to college. And so on and on and on.

My point is that in society Money is now essential - everyone wants cool stuff; iPods, cars, HD TVs, Computer Games. With no monetary system how would we decide who gets what? Nowadays that's decided by who can afford what.

For this sort of society to work, variety would have to dissappear. You couldn't make a 30 gig iPod and a 60 gig one. Everyone would want the 60 gig & who has more right to it than anyone else?

A Barter system would not work in a modern society either - what does a Doctor give you after getting some food off you? Or a teacher? They have nothing material to barter, only skills.

The only way to live a life free of money is to live in a self sustaining eco system with no Access to the Luxeries and Products of consumer society.
 
Ultroniar said:
"Can contemporary man live free and unfettered from money as a form of exchange?"

Well what solution would you propose - if it were to be a (Dare I say it) Communist type arrangement; by which I mean, everyone does their share and gets what they need for free in return. e.g; The Doctor heals people, the Mechanic fixes cars, Farmers farm etc and everyone gets what they need - The Farmer provides food, gets free healthcare and free Services on his car.

IMO this would not work - for example, Right now what I want more than anything is a car. The only thing stopping me is lack of money. If there was no money, then everyone my age would want a car; but who gets the Lexus? Who gets the Merc? Who gets the BMW? Who ends up with a Lada?
Who gets the Mansion at the end of the road? Do we then have to start saying - "He's a Doctor, and heals people so he gets the Mansion", what about the Farmer? Without him no-one gets to eat. But the Doctor had to go to college. And so on and on and on.

My point is that in society Money is now essential - everyone wants cool stuff; iPods, cars, HD TVs, Computer Games. With no monetary system how would we decide who gets what? Nowadays that's decided by who can afford what.

For this sort of society to work, variety would have to dissappear. You couldn't make a 30 gig iPod and a 60 gig one. Everyone would want the 60 gig & who has more right to it than anyone else?

A Barter system would not work in a modern society either - what does a Doctor give you after getting some food off you? Or a teacher? They have nothing material to barter, only skills.

The only way to live a life free of money is to live in a self sustaining eco system with no Access to the Luxeries and Products of consumer society.

If we only got what we built, ate what we farmed or ranched from this day forward... could you survive? Would you need a car in a world not built on money? What would your priorities be and where would you derrive your happiness?

Those are the questions we have to answer before we can decide if we could adapt to that way of life.
 
3200 said:
If we only got what we built, ate what we farmed or ranched from this day forward... could you survive? Would you need a car in a world not built on money? What would your priorities be and where would you derrive your happiness?

Those are the questions we have to answer before we can decide if we could adapt to that way of life.

Those are really good (and deep!) questions. I think a society on the scale of ones existing today couldn't survive without a monetary system.

I could survive without money, but life would be completely different. Priorities would be totally different. It wouldn't be about having the best car, it's be about feeding your family.

Your priorites would have to be Family and Love, not material goods. Not about success and admiration from your peers. All you would worry about is your next meal, fixing your roof, keeping your family warm etc.

It's too mind boggling to think how different life would be. I must say, I'm happy with the materialistic world we live in - as sad as this sounds, I can't imagine life without Bands to listen to, TV, the internet, the huge social networks in cities, modern conveniences, modern healthcare. Sure its all a rat race, but I'm not looking to win - just enjoy the taking part!

I don't care what anyone says - life now with all its materialistic goods is better than when we were hunter getherers.
 
Ultroniar said:
Those are really good (and deep!) questions. I think a society on the scale of ones existing today couldn't survive without a monetary system.

I could survive without money, but life would be completely different. Priorities would be totally different. It wouldn't be about having the best car, it's be about feeding your family.

Your priorites would have to be Family and Love, not material goods. Not about success and admiration from your peers. All you would worry about is your next meal, fixing your roof, keeping your family warm etc.

It's too mind boggling to think how different life would be. I must say, I'm happy with the materialistic world we live in - as sad as this sounds, I can't imagine life without Bands to listen to, TV, the internet, the huge social networks in cities, modern conveniences, modern healthcare. Sure its all a rat race, but I'm not looking to win - just enjoy the taking part!

I don't care what anyone says - life now with all its materialistic goods is better than when we were hunter getherers.
I think that's "Your truth" because Your opinion is that "YOUR" life is better suited to what "you" want in "This" particular societal system.

:)

That's cool. But to someone with different priorities, the answer may not be the same.

For thousands of years musicians have toured and played.....and given enjoyment to the people. :) LONG before Money. It was called Pow Wow. :):headbang:

Where was this society then?
 
More thoughts:

Essentially, money today is nothing more than numbers on a screen. Sure there is a set supply of money (or numbers), but nothing but the good faith of the government backs it.

Also, on a related topic, I have a huge gripe about America. Everything, and I mean everything is done for profit. There is no concern for higher quality of product (quality goes as low as sales allow), quality of life, ethics and morals (unless there is the possibility of a nasty lawsuit), or the future. Yes, this unrestrained capitalism of ours is destroying America. I sound like Marx, but its true. I have no alternative to suggest... Take philosophy, politics, literature, art, even higher mathmatics and science. No one, and I mean no one gives a fuck at all because they are unrelated to profit and ones potential to make money. A rant, I know.
 
That's absoutely spot on Speed. How could anyone disagree with that?

Individuals trying to be as self-sufficient as possible is very admirable. The present rate of consumption of Earth's resources is unsustainable and will hit a metaphorifcal brick wall within 50 years - unless someone invents a nano machine.

Money itself is neither good nor bad, it is like fire and depends on how it is used: it can keep you warm or it can burn you up.
 
I totally agree with the last two posts.

I have the same gripe about america. Yesterday I watched congress live on cspan. I watched as nearly all the republicans were present and about 15 democrats. they were trying to pass a bill that would let the shut down military bases have the option to turn the old bases in to refineries that could employ thousands in those devastated little towns. It would reduce the price we are paying for gas about 30-65cents the first 6 months of production and work towards making us not have to rely on outside oil.

all repubs but 5 were present. They all voted FOR it. I watched as the UN-present democrats called in their votes.... every single democrat but 2 voted against it. They gridlocked and the bill failed.

Why didn't WE get to vote? Why would dem's rally (by phone) to keep our gas prices high? I watched in amazement at the dems shoot down everything repubs tried... even if they agreed they still voted against it... they even stalled the bill that said lobbiest can't take private funding for trips to lobby unless the ethics board approved it.

GOD I HATE PARTISAN POLITICS! They are killing our country.

Yesterday dems were pushing to have typos and bookeeping mistakes hold a criminal charge. So don't mess up on your taxes... dems will send you to jail!

And where were the other 185 dems? I want to know since my tax dollars pay for them to be at work and in session and they most definiately WERE NOT.
 
speed said:
I ask this philosophical (and I mean philosophical, not practical) question: Can contemporary man live free and unfettered from money as a form of exchange?

Would it be possible, to have a working society, where the acquisition of money is not the sole aim and goal? Would persons of skill and intelligence, still seek higher positions without the allure of material gain?


P.S. I have my doubts; at the same time, I wish there was a better way. It would be nice if money wasnt the sole decider of so many things in life--for americans especially.

I'm from Canada and we're like the half-assed capitalism of the States but we still have the fast food, TV, videogames and soda drinks and so on. I dont think it's easy for the modern first world man to live completely away from money, technology, and mass media since our lives are built on it. Unless, they move away to a third world country or completely localize society and who has the guts to go that far? I doubt I can do that either because I admit first world status is comfortable. Rarely can a man escape society completely because most people live togather to sustain themselves. Also, like I mentioned many times earlier. Like Orwell said most men live apathetically and goes with the flow of things without stopping and questioning anything. But, I dont like the feeling of living in mass apathy and the bottomline is we have to become marketable products ourselves to make a living.

I knew people in highschool who listened to the same music and thought of themselves as rebels of the system but they're nothing more than a bunch of losers talking shit.

But still, I don't think everybody lives for money alone because some live for something higher like developing one's knowledge, skill or a good name. Someone mentioned Marx earlier, and one aspect he made a theory on is the growing specialization of work. Now, that we dont have to worry about basic necessities of living everyone in society has to specialize in a certain field to make a living. But again mentioned earlier, work turns into sellable commodities. For example, in the illustration field, there's copyright issues based on image. There are illustrators out there, instead of concentrating on working on building their skills or making deeper work, all they think about is "how do I maximize profit and get the better end of the deal"? It's not about what something is anymore it's more like who has the rights to own it and what not. When it gets to that point, it gets stupid.
 
MURAI said:
But still, I don't think everybody lives for money alone because some live for something higher like developing one's knowledge, skill or a good name. Someone mentioned Marx earlier, and one aspect he made a theory on is the growing specialization of work. Now, that we dont have to worry about basic necessities of living everyone in society has to specialize in a certain field to make a living. But again mentioned earlier, work turns into sellable commodities. For example, in the illustration field, there's copyright issues based on image. There are illustrators out there, instead of concentrating on working on building their skills or making deeper work, all they think about is "how do I maximize profit and get the better end of the deal"? It's not about what something is anymore it's more like who has the rights to own it and what not. When it gets to that point, it gets stupid.

The last point is the most depressing at all. It also might shine light on our relative lack of cultural creativity. Even well-regarded artists--in whatever genre from music, lit, art, etc., are only middling, and only well-regarded because of their sales and profits.
 
speed said:
The last point is the most depressing at all. It also might shine light on our relative lack of cultural creativity. Even well-regarded artists--in whatever genre from music, lit, art, etc., are only middling, and only well-regarded because of their sales and profits.

That reminds me of another philosophy of mine.

"Be yourself and make your own art. If it's good, "commercial" will become YOU. If you make yourself become commercial, then you aren't providing art. You're providing a service..."

If you want to provide a service, be a cover band. A virtual live jukebox. I won't lie, I want sales and profit. Shit, I wanna be multiplatinum... be the next Metallica or Godsmack! But I'm gonna take my cut of the profit and use it to make myself, my home and my family more able to sustain ourself without money or the social system.

I may not agree with everything Ted Nugent says (he's a litte right of me) but you can bet your ass that if shit hit the fan today from some natural or other disaster, Ted would have his shit together.

I want to be the same.