Nevermore/Killswitch Video Mixes?

[Matt Smith]

Watching Headbanger's Ball, and they played the video for Nevermore's "I, Voyager." Maybe I'm losing my mind, but it totally didn't sound like the original muddy mess. A remix?

Also, they played the Killswitch Engage video for "The End of Heartache," which was also edited a lot (arrangement/length-wise), and was a different mix with louder/different vocals in parts. Did you do this video mix, Andy?

 

[Andy Sneap]

No, I didn't remix I voyager, though I did remix "Enemies" the other week, just the track, and I have to say it was tracked ok. I noticed I voyager sounded better also, but I was listening on a laptop so....

The Killswitch mix was, yep, you guessed it, a label decision, "the Radio Mix".
I didn't do it.
This happened with 36 CF also, apparently, screaming and shouting isn't allowed on the radio, and if you cut a song down by 10 seconds it will make all the difference. mmm ok
I've been pretty open with Roadrunner on my opinion of this, it's something they felt strongly about and after all, they're the label so what they do with things is down to the band and themselves. It reminds me of major label ideals, and personally I don't think it suits heavier acts.
But then again, I'm still seeing it from a fans point of view, I remember being pissed when hearing a watered down version of things, surely the appeal of these bands is the heaviness???

What do you guys think??

Do you think changing one or two vocal lines, shortening a song and louder vox will make all the difference?

I guess the guys at RR know what they can push to Radio better than me, but its an interesting topic for discussion

 

[NathanSoulfracture]

i heard the remix for the end of heartache a few days ago and i thought the clean singing over the pre-chorus was pointless and made the song sound crap, without the shouting the song just seems to stay on the same platform throughout, like it doesnt take it to a new level. if that makes sense.

 

[Cooperman]

I think RR have long lost any credibility as a metal label. They're as corporate as the major labels (aren't they owned by Sony anyway?). Radio mixes are just an attempt to cash in on a band's popularity. In the case of KE they see a band who have attained good success in a reasonably short amount of time and they can see a potential crossover market into more mainstream music formats by the editing out of aggressive parts of a song.

The horrible thought is that if it works they will then apply pressure to the band to produce another "hit" or a couple of "hits" on the next release. If labels just left bands alone, they could get 6-7 albums over 10-15 years out of a band and make more money out of them that way rather than force a band into a certain direction and have the band break up because of it, or fans turn on the band and lose their popularity.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Progenies of the Great Apocalypse by Dimmu Borgir (a really great song and video) got the entire 2nd verse chopped for video. I think what it boils down to is something very simple that Shagrath (vox) said in an interview recently, namely that you really have to develop an ear for black metal, you cant just start listening to it out of nowhere.

So you got these kids watching headbangers ball or whatever, and they've got A.D.D. as it is, cant pay attention to shit for more than 2 minutes these days, let alone some cookie monster singer clad in facepaint and Halford leather...

Anyway, I guess it's smart for Dimmu to cut to the melodic Vox in the middle earlier while they still got the audience's attention. The objective of the video is to lure the audience in toward the band, and songs that have less are easier to follow, hence, lets cut that shit out and make it (in the words of Robb Flynn several years ago) "Commercially Viable."

All that being said, I think what we are really discussing here is ART vs. PROFIT. At which point can something still be considered art, despite having been cut, chopped, edited, etc. enough to change it into something "commercially viable," something profitable?

On the one hand, you could argue that it's ok to raise the vocals or to cut out a verse for a video or radio edit because the bottom line is that it will get the band better quality exposure, which is good for everyone including the band, the fans, and the media fuckers.

On the other hand, you have to evaluate what's REALLY going on. By definition of what metal is, at least in most people's eyes, it is totally hypocritical to edit a metal song. The whole point of metal is to stand up against shit like that, yet how many bands fall into that trap of "well, we're really good musicians, and we've got a solid following, let's try to take that direction and who knows maybe we'll get lucky and get famous." I'm not gonna name any names, but we all know what happens when bands try that shit and the metal gods don't let it happen. Two albums later they're broken up, or at least they should be.

Ok, sorry for the rambling...by the way, does anyone have a link to the remixed I, Voyager? I am dying to be able to hear what the hell the guitars are actually doing on some parts, which are too muddy on the cd.

 

[2dark]

I always though that this only happens in the US and that german music TV stations
(if they ever play heavy stuff) don't care about those stuff (except for cutting
videos to a certain length). Wrong .... they start the same thing here now

Worst ones I recognized so far have been 'As I Lay Dying' (don't know the name
of the song but on CD it kicks ass) and 'Wait And Bleed' by Slipknot (which was
the soundtrack version for Resident Evil).

As a fan I hate it when they cut or change album versions just for the sake
of having something radio friendly or mass compatible. I would say f*** that.
But as a musician who has to make a living out of it, there's probably no way to avoid
that.
And for audio people and producers it means more work, more money.

About 5 years ago we've been asked to put a song from our current demo at that
time on a compilation CD. But we had to cut the 6 sec. intro because someone
says 'ass' on it. We told them to ask maybe another band for the compilation .....

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

exactly! it happens at all levels, from metallica to garage bands.

Just last week my band played a show and wanted to be listed under a different name because our singer was playing bass too (original bass player is out of the country for a while) but the promoter wouldnt let us saying that less people would come to the show.

 

[egan.]

Do you think changing one or two vocal lines, shortening a song and louder vox will make all the difference?

I guess the guys at RR know what they can push to Radio better than me, but its an interesting topic for discussion

I think that it has a lot more to do with what the radio stations want than what actually sells. I'm not sure how it works everywhere else but in the US mainstream radio stations have these playlists of usually under 50 songs that they cycle throw and they are always trying to maximize comercial time as well so songs have to be catchy and concise so that it can make the playlist in the first place and then stay there. So you need to get the program directors on your side in order to get fans. Besides that there are a few huge corporations (ex. clear channel) that own most of the major market radio stations-- so you are really trying to appeal to an even smaller group. So, of you know the Dude at clear channel doesn't want death vox and you want to sell a million records in the US, you mix that shit for him. Scummy I know, but even huge bands like Tool end up having their songs cut down so they get airplay.
I think the thing is that (here in the US) metal bands have to have crossover appeal to break big. And now that RR has HUGE bands like nickel back they think and act like a major label.

As far as the art v. profit that Genius brought up, I've got a mixed opinion. I definitely understand not wanting to compomise the song structure and arangement that you've created. However, as a musician I can safely say that I would be open to radio edits and shit in the interest of selling more records. If given a choice between someone hearing 3 minutes of my song or not hearing it at all, I'll take the 3 minute edit every time. If they buy the record they'll get what I intended. MTV is a huge factor too....a band like dimmu will get virtually ignored by radio in the US, but a couple of million folks will see the video on headbangers ball. That's huge. That's not selling out...that's selling records.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

totally...i suppose it's all about what you want to accomplish. I think that if any of us just wanted to sell as many records as possible, we probably wouldn't be doing metal in the first place...

 

[egan.]

totally...i suppose it's all about what you want to accomplish. I think that if any of us just wanted to sell as many records as possible, we probably wouldn't be doing metal in the first place...

At least not metal without turntables.....hahaha.

 

[Matt Smith]

Another thing that's interesting about it is that in these cases where the rough vox, etc. are being edited out, if the song does happen to make it onto the radio or MTV or whatever and someone likes it and buys the album, there's a good chance they won't like the album because it's so different from what the band was advertised as sounding like via the single. So sure, you may gain a sale out of it, but you'll also have someone who is less likely to buy again based on a single without hearing the album first, and someone who will avoid the band in the future. That just goes to show the shortsightedness of a lot of record labels nowadays, and how it's become all about selling albums NOW with no concern for the band's future. Whatever happened to building an artist's career? A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, some labels actually cared about things like that...
I understand it's the label's job to sell albums, but I've never understood trying to sell a band as something they're not. Why not go sign a band that sounds like whatever it is you want to sell instead?

 

[Impy]

But if they don't like it because of the rougher vox then they wouldn't have bought the album in the first place, so it's still a good thing, sure that person won't like you or buy your next album but it's a sale right? And if it wasn't for that radiomix he wouldn't have bought the album.

 

[Matt Smith]

If money's your main goal, I guess it's a good thing. From a fan's perspective, it's not (IMO). Too much smoke and mirrors for me. I don't sell tons of albums, but I like the fact that people that buy my album do so because they love the music, not because they were tricked into thinking they would.

 

[Andy Sneap]

What I'm talking about is just 2 or 3 lines being changed.....how is that going to make a difference??, especially when it's not as good!. Kids these days want it heavier, they want screaming, its almost like these radio guys are stuck in the past. How is a louder vocal going to make it more accessible?? I heard the Killswitch mix yesterday for End Of Heartache, and I honestly don't see how that is any more radio friendly than my mix, its even more compressed, drums are buried- so bet it sounds great with all that radio friendly compression!!not.
No power to the kit, sometimes I despair!

I can understand cutting a song down in length, doing a non swearing version etc, but why change what the band is about, seeing as a video should represent the band.

And No, I really don't think the changes made would make a difference to whether it gets airplay or not.

 

[Matt Smith]

I agree totally. The "rules" for radio play nowadays are different from 15 years ago.

 

[Hopkins-WitchfinderGeneral]

So anyway, why does everyone go on and on and on about the mix of Enemies being REALLY MUDDY because guess what, it REALLY AIN'T THAT MUDDY actually.

I can hear everything perfectly, it sounds ROUGH not muddy...

 

[egan.]

If money's your main goal, I guess it's a good thing. From a fan's perspective, it's not (IMO). Too much smoke and mirrors for me. I don't sell tons of albums, but I like the fact that people that buy my album do so because they love the music, not because they were tricked into thinking they would.

I absolutely hear you, but the entire idea of releasing one song at a time (radio/mtv) can create this illusion. How many careers have been sustained by one or two "singles" per record? Granted that's not how underground metal generally works, but I think fans quickly forget that (at least in the US) the average person isn't comfortable with death vox. If KSE can sell a bunch of records and ease fans into the style then it's better for all of us. I think few people who hear the single will hate the record.
I really don't think that major market radio is signifcantly different than it was 15 years ago. I've lived in a few places across the US and done a shitload of driving and stations across the country are playing the same stuff and following the same rules.....vocals up, master it so hot there are no dynamics so when it hits the AGC's it will already be floored, songs should be 3:30 long. There are definitely exceptions, but if you really listen to the (US) corporate radio you'll know these things hold true. The only

 

[egan.]

And No, I really don't think the changes made would make a difference to whether it gets airplay or not.

It may come down to habbit. These labels are so used to having to do radio edits/mixes that they think there is no choice but to do so. I've also heard that (aside from the AGC theory) over-compressing a mix originally developed for program director v/a promos where everyone tried to make their shit louder than everyone else b/c (of course) louder=better. Don't know if there is any truth to that, but dumber things have been true.

 

[Andy Sneap]

thats the thing, there's still an 80's mentality to this. The only reason I mentioned it is because the changes made to the tracks I've done, are so small, so insignificant and I feel actually for the worse. It kills the dynamics of the song, just because there seems to be this "rule" that you can't shout the odd line (and I mean a line), when lets face it, there's some stuff out there thats selling millions where the singer has, shock, horror, screamed!!! ooooooo

The market has changed, I'm not saying Death Metal is getting major airplay, but you'd think they'd realise kids are buying into a different style these days.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting a band as much exposure as possible, and if one or two changes will help, great. But I honestly don't see how a different, weaker snare, a muddier mix, louder vox and a couple of changed lines can make that jump.

 

[egan.]

I think it only makes a difference to the FCC, Program Directors and other guys in suits. You're right...it has nothing to do with music or quality.