"Pop" Metal

[Daybreaker]

This one's been itching in the back of my mind for a good minute now. In threads, in reviews, and all over the place I hear the term "pop" metal to describe bands like Sonata Arctica, Nightwish, Hammerfall, Helloween, basically a shitload of Power Metal bands. "They're heading in a pop direction. This pop metal is big in Europe. No, I dont listen to that pop metal that you do."

What the fuck are you talking about when you say pop? The music factor seems kind of odd to call pop. When Ecliptica, or Glory To The Brave came out, I don't recall seeing many reviews where they were categorized under "pop music." I remember alot of "heavy metal" taglines. Is it because they have a catchy chorus? So if that's the case then how does a band like Deicide differ when the chorus of a song is easy to remember when its "I Hate Your God" multiple times? That's easy to remember too but no ones calling it pop. Is it melodic guitar lines? Shit, I've heard thrash bands pump out riffs that I remember long after the solo is done. Is that poppy?

Or is it because this band is no longer "your" band? Instead of you sitting alone in the dark feeling like you're the only person in the world listening to them, you're a part of something called a fanbase which often times consists of many people.

Basically this semi coherent post is trying to ask is : At what point did metal fans start pointing their finger at other metal bands proclaiming them "pop", thus putting them on the same level as Kelly Clarkson?

 

[GreggSuspyre]

I never use this "pop" term, as I hate vague terms used to describe music. But, technically "pop"music is any music that doesn't classify as "art" music. That's a whole can of worms there.

Here's what I think those people are getting at. Take the music of any of those bands listed and remove the double bass and palm-muted sixteenth notes on guitars, change the lyrics and image, and you'll get a traditional American "pop" song. The harmonic motion, melodies, and structure (intro, verse 1, pre-chorus, chorus 1, verse 2, pre-chorus, chorus 2, bridge in the key of IV, guitar solo, chorus 3, outro) are extremely similar to pop music. At the store where I teach I get to hear a lot of pop, and I noticed that if I just played the same power chords they're playing but as straight sixteenths with more distortion, I'd get power metal in its rawest form. I've done it, and it's pretty scary how similar it sounds.

I don't know from what source you are referring, but the one who coins this music as "pop" probably meant that the music is conservative and catchy in regards to the metal spectrum, instead of intricate and for lack of a better word, evil.

 

[skyrefuge]

thus putting them on the same level as Kelly Clarkson?

Dang, I sure wish that there were a lot more singers in metal who are on the level of Kelly Clarkson! That girl can sing.

But yeah, Gregg basically has the truth of it when describing what makes something "pop". And as he says, it's just a descriptive term, there's nothing that means it has to be negative. Some of the "pop" stuff on the new Nightwish album is awesome.

Neil

 

[Magius]

But yeah, Gregg basically has the truth of it when describing what makes something "pop". And as he says, it's just a descriptive term, there's nothing that means it has to be negative. Some of the "pop" stuff on the new Nightwish album is awesome.

Neil

Be that as it may "Pop Metal" is generally used as a derogatory term. It's usually applied to Power Metal bands by tr00 Metalheads that consider it metalized Journey music, and refuse to take it seriously. As I said in the 2007 album stats thread a lot of "serious" metal fans consider it reminiscent of 80's hair bands with cheesy upbeat and as Gregg said "un-evil" lyrics.

I've had someone ask me what I was listening to while playing something like GammaRay. When I told them who it was they responded with, "Huh. I thought I knew all those quirky 80's bands." Not that it matters, really. I don't listen to anything based on what anyone else thinks of it.

 

[Diamond45]

A lot of so-called "metalheads" don't like power metal, and probably even fewer like progressive metal.

Most people associate metal with black, death, gothic or similar genres. For them, anything outside of these genres and the "cookie monster" vocals isn't "true" metal.

I say BULLSHIT. I like power metal. I like prog metal. I really could care or less about black, death, gothic, etc.

Whatever floats your boat or sinks your sub. I listen to what I like to listen to, and you listen what you like to listen to. If you like what I like - great. If not - big effing deal.

But I think most of you know where I'm coming from.

 

[Yippee38]

I've used it. I use it as a derogatory term to describe MTV metal bands. It's usually not power metal, but metal bands that are apparently in it for the money/fame rather than for their art. For example, IMO Metallica is now a pop-metal band. A lot of times, to me, it also is for bands that go for a light sound, and a pretty standard sound/song structure. Stuff that is apparently made for radio/MTV play. I think of pop metal bands as bands like Linkin Park, Tool, etc. The "popular" stuff. BTW, that doesn't mean it's bad, it just means that it's kind of a corruption of what metal is all about IMO.

 

[eppst1]

I tend to agree with what Yipee is saying. I pretty much feel that anything that is easily accessible by the general population (Metallica, Korn) would be considered "popular" metal: i.e. pop.

 

[7thSaviour]

I always thought that pop-metal referred to bands like Whitesnake, Motley Crue and Stryper.

 

[Jim LotFP]

This one's been itching in the back of my mind for a good minute now. In threads, in reviews, and all over the place I hear the term "pop" metal to describe bands like Sonata Arctica, Nightwish, Hammerfall, Helloween, basically a shitload of Power Metal bands. "They're heading in a pop direction. This pop metal is big in Europe. No, I dont listen to that pop metal that you do."

Gregg hits a lot of it...

But I've really started using the term since moving to Finland because a lot of this stuff is pop music here in every single sense of the term.

But short (3-4 minute) songs, really catching choruses, and a slick and/or keyboard-heavy sound... come on. It's not a question of "Why do metalheads get all pissy and have to call things pop?" The real question is "Why can't some metalheads just admit they are listening to amplified pop music?"

 

[skyrefuge]

For example, IMO Metallica is now a pop-metal band.

Not that I blame you, but apparently you never heard any of 'St. Anger' then?

Linkin Park, Tool, etc.

Linkin Park, ok. Tool, no, not even close.

Neil

 

[Yippee38]

But short (3-4 minute) songs, really catching choruses, and a slick and/or keyboard-heavy sound

This is what I was trying to say by talking about song structure.

Not that I blame you, but apparently you never heard any of 'St. Anger' then?

I have not listened to it. I was talking about the black album and Load. I kinda wrote them off after that. Didn't like the one song I heard off of St. Anger either. (though that's not what this thread is about)

Tool, no, not even close.

Maybe not by your definition, but by mine they are very definitely "pop" metal. As Jim stated above, they may be heavy, but that doesn't make them not-pop IMO.

 

[skyrefuge]

I was talking about the black album and Load. I kinda wrote them off after that. Didn't like the one song I heard off of St. Anger either. (though that's not what this thread is about)

Yeah, certainly the Black Album and 'Load' are "pop". They went in the complete opposite direction with 'St. Anger' though. It's completely radio-unfriendly, with a deliberately raw production, long songs, not a lot of melody, and no guitar solos. Its intentional un-poppiness is basically what defines that album.

Maybe not by your definition, but by mine they are very definitely "pop" metal. As Jim stated above, they may be heavy, but that doesn't make them not-pop IMO.

Ok, be honest, you've never heard a Tool album before. Because I think our working definitions are basically the same. The band I'm talking about is the one who has a ton of 8+ minute songs, a heavy King Crimson influence, inscrutable lyrics, a vocalist who hides in the shadows during their live shows, and an incredibly pretentious approach to album art and presentation. The only possible definition of "pop" that could apply to them is "they're popular". And frankly, I'm still baffled as to *why* they're so popular. If Opeth suddenly started playing arenas, that would make them just as much of a "pop" band as Tool.

Neil

 

[ratanda]

I can see that. Especially for Helloween. Like the song Mrs. God.

 

[Photino Decay]

I like the way Pagan's Mind's new one has a much more "pop" feel to it. And yes, I have no clue how Tool could be considered pop. Maybe a song here or there, but even then...

Often I draw a distinction between prog and pop, myself. (Although there might be an "art" axis, too.) Things that are more predictable and simple in terms of harmonies, melodies, progressions, etc, I consider to be more pop. It's a continuum, too, as God's Equation can get poppy, but still have portions that are really prog. The song structures are more poppy, but some of the harmonies are still quite prog. So maybe you can apply the distinction separately to different attributes of the songs.

 

[Daybreaker]

I think Gregg's explanation was the most scientific and one of the most useful. But to take that formula and apply it to all genres of metal with examples being: The New Order by Testament, Lie by Dream Theater, and Nova Era by Angra would basically show that these three are the same so therefore they must all be "poppish." I couldnt tell you what keys these are in but they do have the same elements of easy to listen melodies, catchy choruses, and simple verses. The second part of his post though was where I think he nailed it. But at what point in the metal community did this term start getting used to describe other metal bands is what I'm trying to ask. Linkin Park, Korn, Godsmack and whatnot never really will cause much of a debate on their Xtreme metalness. It' s when I read reviews of Unia and see "This is the Finnish pop metal band that caused so much of an uproar in 1999?" or "Ensiferum's poppy take on folk death metal..." and even Dark Tranquillity being described as "shitty pop death" that I wonder what goes through the minds of many metal heads if they think this is "pop music."

 

[speedy1383]

When I think of pop metal, I think of Def Leppard, Dokken, Bon Jovi, Whitesnake, Motley Crue, Ratt. I recoil when someone mentions St. Anger. What a piece of garbage that album was. It may not be pop metal, but it was crap.

 

[PureXul]

A lot of so-called "metalheads" don't like power metal, and probably even fewer like progressive metal.

Most people associate metal with black, death, gothic or similar genres. For them, anything outside of these genres and the "cookie monster" vocals isn't "true" metal.

I say BULLSHIT. I like power metal. I like prog metal. I really could care or less about black, death, gothic, etc.

Thanks for filling the anti-extreme-metal quota for this thread. The topic has nothing to do with extreme metal people being snobs. You'll see just as many power and prog metal fans using the term "pop metal" as you will other types of metalheads.

You attack them for being biased against certain types of metal, yet you intentionally use a derisive term like "cookie monster". Maybe a wee bit hypocritical there?

 

[MetalRose]

I'm going to admit I haven't read all the replies here, but here is my two cents:

I have used POP Metal, actually I've been using it for a long time. But I've been using it to refer to bands who are radio popular/friendly. For example, Metallica is POP metal. Metallica is POPULAR and has regular and drive time (work time) "rock" station radio play across the USA. I don't see that SA or other listed bands have much, if any regular drive time rock radio play at all. I think I've heard Dream Theater on the radio ONCE during work and drive hours. Most listeners of a radio station are between the times of 6 am and 6 pm usually. That is when you will find the most generic and shitty popular songs played 3-4 times daily. If not more.

I've never lied about not being the biggest prog/power fan out there. I've always said that I'm a generic metal head who prefers Death/Doom over most other types of metal (This is in relation to PureXul and Diamond45's comments but not necessarly directed toward them.)

So yeah, POP metal IMHO is a vaild category, but isn't specific to just one. I guess I could see how other bands could fit as they are somewhat radio friendly, but if 75% of the metalheads haven't heard that band before, how the hell are they "pop"?

Alright, rant over. I'm tired so my thoughts are a little out there. But please feel free to debate with me on this one.

-Metal

 

[Rev. Clayton]

I think what I don't understand is...especially after reading everyone's posts is why we have such an obsession with classifying everything. I don't think I've ever used the term "pop metal" to catagorize anything, however I do use the word crap to describe some of them.

My simple point is that if you don't like the music, then don't listen to it. That's what I do with Godsmack. I gave up on radio quite some time ago and not because I hate everything that gets played. It's actually because radio destroys everything they play by playing it over and over and over again. Hell, if I had to listen to Opeth's "Deliverance" everytime I turned on the radio I probably wouldn't want to hear that song anymore either.

I think Gregg's right if you need to worry about classification, but if not...listen to what you want to listen to and don't worry so much about what it means if you are.

 

[Taliwakker]

Here's what I think those people are getting at. Take the music of any of those bands listed and remove the double bass and palm-muted sixteenth notes on guitars, change the lyrics and image, and you'll get a traditional American "pop" song.

or a Eurovision song contest entry.