Producing vocals for the first time

[NoSoup4you22]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6097696/The Distance+Vocals.mp3

New at this, I realize the whole mix has its flaws, but yeah. Just trying to get it as good as possible. Main concerns are balancing the volumes - verses might seem louder than the 4-part choir choruses, even if the overall levels are the same, not sure how to approach that. Also not sure how to keep the vocals from covering up the guitars. There's 3 blank spots where death vocals are gonna go soon.

One other thing - a lot of the vocals I hear in pro mixes sound "dryer" than mine, but still smooth and transparent. How's that happen? I think I've seen this question asked before but don't think it was answered.

I'm doing everything except vocals here - writing, guitar and bass, drum and keyboard programming, production...

Oh hay carlos

 

[joeymusicguy]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6097696/The Distance+Vocals.mp3

New at this, I realize the whole mix has its flaws, but yeah. Just trying to get it as good as possible. Main concerns are balancing the volumes - verses might seem louder than the 4-part choir choruses, even if the overall levels are the same, not sure how to approach that. Also not sure how to keep the vocals from covering up the guitars. There's 3 blank spots where death vocals are gonna go soon.

One other thing - a lot of the vocals I hear in pro mixes sound "dryer" than mine, but still smooth and transparent. How's that happen? I think I've seen this question asked before but don't think it was answered.

I'm doing everything except vocals here - writing, guitar and bass, drum and keyboard programming, production...

Oh hay carlos

compress the vocals more, then turn them down (unless you do unity make up gain)

you also have way too much de-essing going on, either that, or they're just not compressed enough to hear the sibiliance. it sounds like the dude singing has no teeth and there's a sock in his mouth

and just in case you're wondering. your vocals are actually a bit too quiet...

finally, dont take me as hateful, im just brutally honest.

 

[NoSoup4you22]

Nah dude, I appreciate it. I'll reevaluate the compression situation in the morning... Er... Afternoon. Are the delay/reverb alright?

 

[Skinny Viking]

I'd be a little more clear about using the term "producing" vocals Matt

I think what you mean to say is "mixing" vocals

 

[joeymusicguy]

I'd be a little more clear about using the term "producing" vocals Matt

I think what you mean to say is "mixing" vocals

this, +1

i ignored the ambiguous question phrasing and answered accordingly

 

[Skinny Viking]

^ well, it was for that reason and also due to my having just a bit of involvement along with Dave the singer

and I agree with what you said as well, something hinky going on with the compression & EQ, thats not what the actual vocal tracks sound like

Matt as for your question ... I'm not really hearing much of a delay on the vox, they actually seem a bit too dry in spots ... the lead in to the 2nd verse is WAY too quiet ("Back and back and back and back and forth") and the harmony at the end of the 1st verse is a bit too loud IMO and the bridge sections leading into the "waiting in the dark" sections seem a bit mucked up. Hard to tell on my pc speakers at the moment but it sounds like you added another vocal part under those sections? From one of his older takes that he sent you a clip of maybe?

 

[Morgan C]

One other thing - a lot of the vocals I hear in pro mixes sound "dryer" than mine, but still smooth and transparent. How's that happen? I think I've seen this question asked before but don't think it was answered.

In order from easiest to hardest: delay instead of verb, saturation, good analogue compressors, good vocalist.


Just listening on laptop speakers now, but these vocals sound decent. Vocalist is good too, fair amount of power for how high up he is.

 

[NoSoup4you22]

Updated the file. Compressed the vocals more, changed the EQ, cleaned up some harmonies+panned them less, made various misc fixes.

As far as the mixing VS producing thing, I'm not sure where one draws the line. I'm more familiar with the terms in electronic music. Someone wanna elaborate?

Skinny Viking - I turned up the "back and" part a little bit and messed with the effects. It has always sounded audible on my headphones though... I really need to get some studio monitors. As for the harmony, yeah, that's Rob. We went on a run the other night and when we got back I was like screw it, record a harmony for me real quick. I think it sounds pretty transparent in the latest mixdown, but let me know what you think.

Morgan C - Did some reading up on saturation. Interesting. Any plugin recommendations? And you probably get this a lot, but who is that in your avatar?

 

[Morgan C]

Morgan C - Did some reading up on saturation. Interesting. Any plugin recommendations?

PSP Saturation is what I use (on tape3 setting). Slate is coming out with something soon, and there have been a couple other efforts but they use too much CPU or don't sound good.

Nebula seems to be the closest to the real thing, judging by Ermz' reviews, but REALLY CPU heavy.. my computer is running at near 100% whenever I have a few ampsims running so I can't use it.

 

[narcossintese]

As far as the mixing VS producing thing, I'm not sure where one draws the line. I'm more familiar with the terms in electronic music. Someone wanna elaborate?

When mixing you´re dealing with the tracks, when producing you´re also dealing with the person. You know, making them give the take you want.

 

[Skinny Viking]

When mixing you´re dealing with the tracks, when producing you´re also dealing with the person. You know, making them give the take you want.

Thats a pretty good and easy way of looking at it ... Matt, you wrote the melodies and lyrics, you had them worked out in GP and all ... that of course was what Dave and I worked off of but the actual final takes you have are aresult of Dave and I going back and forth striking the right balance between what the melodies you wrote were and what actually works best for a vocalist. Like I told you before, if you wanted a copy of THAT work folder of the different takes and retakes I made Dave do and Dave made himself redo, you're welcome to it but you have to promise to videotape you eyes blowing out of your head when you look through it

The 7 final tracks I sent you that you are currently mixing are the results of all the best takes and retakes Dave did based on ideas and suggestions hashed out during 50 emails and phone calls and after all had been edited and tuned ... all you need to do is drop 'em in the mix so to speak

Ok for your other questions ... the "back and forth" part still sounds fucked up ... did you remove the quieter vocal and copy past the higher one in its place? Lacks the buildup it had IMO.

The harmony parts your boy Rob did sound more transparent in this version, yes. Much better sounding. You could still use a touch of delay on the main vocals, or more than you have cause its still a bit dry. The overall level sounds better on 1st listen, everything is more balanced sounding, try setting the high end on your EQ somewhere between where you had it and where it is now

 

[NoSoup4you22]

What I did with that "back and" part is I took the two whispered tracks, put a lot of reverb on them and faded them in. At the same time, I pasted the actual sung part in that spot, cut the highs, put panned delay on it and faded it out. It sounds like the whispered ones aren't coming through as much on your setup. Admittedly, I haven't worked as much on that as the more standard parts of the song, partly because it requires some creativity and not just doing it right. I will keep trying.

 

[Skinny Viking]

What I did with that "back and" part is I took the two whispered tracks, put a lot of reverb on them and faded them in. At the same time, I pasted the actual sung part in that spot, cut the highs, put panned delay on it and faded it out. It sounds like the whispered ones aren't coming through as much on your setup. Admittedly, I haven't worked as much on that as the more standard parts of the song, partly because it requires some creativity and not just doing it right. I will keep trying.

yeah man, I had the volume cranked here and could barely hear them and for a moment (I guess due to the panning) it actually sounded like they cut out for a second ... not entirely sure what the overall effect you're going for with that part is but yeah, like you said, keep workin with it ... I'm sure it'll sound great when you nail the formula for it

 

[NoSoup4you22]

What I'm sort of going for is at 3:10 here:

 

[Skinny Viking]

try making the fade in a bit more aggressive with the volume slope and maybe start it at a higher db setting from the start. Try doing it without the higher vocal pasted in on top and see if that works ... I'll try to replicate this effect when I get home later and see if its what you're going for. If so, I'll just tell you the exact settings I used and you can duplicate it

 

[Skinny Viking]

oh another thing ... I also used saturation on Dave's vox in the rough mix I threw at you ... I use McDSP AC1 plugin for that

its pricey but worth it

 

[NoSoup4you22]

Don't worry about it on your end if you're busy with the Dio tribute and stuff... I'll keep messing with it later today, but for the time being I've gotta learn a couple songs for another band.

One other thing I was meaning to ask you about - the word "things" fading in at 3:04. Was there a problem with the recording? I've tried to work around it but the punch-in is still kinda obvious.

 

[Skinny Viking]

Don't worry about it on your end if you're busy with the Dio tribute and stuff... I'll keep messing with it later today, but for the time being I've gotta learn a couple songs for another band.

One other thing I was meaning to ask you about - the word "things" fading in at 3:04. Was there a problem with the recording? I've tried to work around it but the punch-in is still kinda obvious.

I can look at the files later but there was no punch in there, its just how he sung it. Sounds ok in the rough mix I sent you and you can always just give it a little volume bump with automation if its not loud enough for you

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/594184/Final Vocals Best Version.mp3

Dave, much to his credit, almost never just sends me clips of one or 2 word punch ins. I actually request that from him sometimes and instead he'll just retrack the entire section over and over and over and over until its what we were both looking for. I love him AND hate him for that So yeah, can almost guarantee there is no punch in there but again, I'll take a look later

I should take me all of a minute or 2 to replicate that effect you're going for if I'm hearing it right so no worries about the time. I've already put some hours into this, a few extra minutes on this tune to help you out is not gonna ruin my day or anything