Protests in Venezuela

[He's Dead, Jim]

I don't want to turn this into a pro vs. anti-Chávez/Maduro thread (though that would be fun), but I know there are some Venezuelan folks on here. What are your thoughts? Any signs of change? Maduro just announced he's going to kick AFP out of the country, so it seems unlikely to me, but it seems like something has to give.

 

[AD Chaos]

Not from there, but I know some Venezuelan folks personally, basically people who speak other languages and have fled the country since it began going to shit (a couple of decades already, I'm told). Just yesterday I was talking with a new client who happened to be born there.

Ironically, up to some 2 decades ago, that country was in much better shape than all of their neighbors, namely because of their huge oil surplus.
Enter extreme leftism:

- Crime rates and murders now run rampant
- No police presence on the streets (and if they are, they're utterly corrupt, dangerous and politicized)
- Scarcity of even the most basic necessities (like toilet paper)
- Nauseous smell by the streets, because there's not even garbage collection services
- Random, prolonged blackouts all over the country
- A decaying, unattended infrastructure on many fronts (even in the oil industry)
- Gas shortages, services through the roof in cost while crappy in quality, etc


That is the ugly truth of communism. Always becoming much worse than the capitalist inequality they originally seek to replace.

In all fairness, Chavez was a sharp leader, he did some intelligent things like demanding Venezuela's gold back from the international bank cartels, and seizing some abusive corporate monopolies. But in the end he couldn't control all the corruption around him, not even within his own family.

Maduro is but unintelligent caricature of Chavez, doesn't even have the charisma or sense of humor Chavez had; only the nationalized oil money to perpetuate a degenerate government, and a corrupt army to subdue the citizenry, censor/control the media internally, steal the oil revenues, etc.

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

Not from there, but I know some Venezuelan folks personally, basically people who speak other languages and have fled the country since it began going to shit (a couple of decades already, I'm told). Just yesterday I was talking with a new client who happened to be born there.

Ironically, up to some 2 decades ago, that country was in much better shape than all of their neighbors, namely because of their huge oil surplus.
Enter extreme leftism:

- Crime rates and murders now run rampant
- No police presence on the streets (and if they are, they're utterly corrupt, dangerous and politicized)
- Scarcity of even the most basic necessities (like toilet paper)
- Nauseous smell by the streets, because there's not even garbage collection services
- Random, prolonged blackouts all over the country
- A decaying, unattended infrastructure on many fronts (even in the oil industry)
- Gas shortages, services through the roof in cost while crappy in quality, etc


That is the ugly truth of communism. Always becoming much worse than the capitalist inequality they originally seek to replace.

In all fairness, Chavez was a sharp leader, he did some intelligent things like demanding Venezuela's gold back from the international bank cartels, and seizing some abusive corporate monopolies. But in the end he couldn't control all the corruption around him, not even within his own family.

Maduro is but unintelligent caricature of Chavez, doesn't even have the charisma or sense of humor Chavez had; only the nationalized oil money to perpetuate a degenerate government, and a corrupt army to subdue the citizenry, censor/control the media internally, steal the oil revenues, etc.

Yeah, I tend to agree with most of this. The only thing is that you have to be careful about attributing some of that stuff to "Bolivarian socialism," or to Chávez. Conservative governments in other Latin American countries (Peru is probably the worst offender) are just as corrupt, albeit not quite as openly authoritarian. But the macroeconomics of the country are just beyond screwed, and it's appalling given how much oil it has.

 

[AD Chaos]

*sorry, edited for clarity.


Ironically, in Venezuela it is the oil revenue that has allowed for a sad figure like Maduro to remain in power thus far.

You are correct about how screwed the economy in Venezuela is today. The leftist ideals turn to corruption are 100% to blame for, though.
I don't think there's as much corruption in Peru, Alberto Fujimori (extreme right wing) was certainly scandalous for his excesses in the early 90s, and yet he managed to put the drug cartels in check, while helping advance the country's economics, improve roads, maritime commerce, and the productive infrastructure in general. Peru has improved their economy enormously in recent years.

Ecuador is not doing that well though, the authoritarian president there is a sort of wannabe Chavez copycat, and a former close friend of his.

 

[narcossintese]

The leftist ideals turn to corruption are 100% to blame for, though.

This isn't true. Most countries in latin america have been raped by extremely corrupt and violent right wing military dictatorships close tied to the USA that left scars that were never healed. Venezuela is probably the country were the shadow of a new militar dictatorship is much closer after Carmona's coup d'état.

Brazil is far richer than UK, Sweden, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Finland and Swiss. All those countries are in much better shape because they've spent much more on "leftist" social policies. GDP is a lie. Economic growth is an ilusion if it's not reverted into health, education, housing and leisure for the entire population. At least Venezuela acknowledges that. It feels that the only country that is doing the right thing on this continent is Uruguay.

 

[AD Chaos]

No I'm afraid you're wrong on almost everything there, and your first point has more to it than that.

While you're very right in that historically many Latin American countries have been gravely hurt by violent right wing dictatorships that have scarred them deeply, you're talking about things that happened decades ago. Even one of the most recent ones (in Chile) ended up more than 20 years ago, and had it's peak a couple of decades more before that. Still, Chile has managed to position themselves as a country with such good employment rates and economic solidity than a good number of Europeans have immigrated there in search of better opportunities over the last years. The problem with those past wounds from dictatorships is that all those countries have become often too prone to embrace left wing nutjobs to counterbalance income inequalities and elitist governments. That is precisely what happened in Venezuela, and it explains why they ended up electing such a colorful character as Chavez.

Brazil is an economic superpower today, but it is because of new vast oil reserves in the sea, and a huge agriculture and bovine industry that destroys the Amazon rainforest, amongst other things. Lula Da Silva was a moderate-left president, and he did a good job propelling the economy of Brazil and stimulating the growth of capital and foreign investment. Bachelet hasn't been anywhere near as good at her presidency (same as Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner in Argentina), and the protests that have been happening in Brazil because of the coming World Cup, for example, spur from the fact that a lot of the infrastructure needed has been funded entirely by taxpayers' money, while it is going to benefit directly a small private sector, and that money is not being spent on much needed things like education, fighting extreme poverty, more humane jails, or better roads. That's the kind of injustices that eventually allow for those countries to turn to left wing extremists and their weird social experiments.

Uruguay's Jose Mujica is a very honest left-wing president with a lot of insight. Not very good at economic policies, though:
http://www.wimp.com/poorestpresident/

And yeah, the problem in Venezuela today is 100% extreme socialism degenerated into corruption, with a dictatorship-like government perpetuating themselves into power by buying off the military and corrupt politicians with the country's abundant, state-controlled oil revenue.

 

[drew_drummer]

@ the idea of the UK being in good shape because of leftist policies.

 

[narcossintese]

While you're very right in that historically many Latin American countries have been gravely hurt by violent right wing dictatorships that have scarred them deeply, you're talking about things that happened decades ago.

It wasn't something that happened decades ago and now is gone. The militar institutions that hold the people hostage before we were allowed to vote are still here, strong as ever.

Lula wasn't a moderate left president, his government was totally aimed for the elite. Yes, there was an economic boost, but as I've said earlier, it was a shit one because it was not horizontal. Making billionaires the ones that were already rich only agravated the social pitfall and led to a more uneven and violent society. Even population on far poorer and troublesome countries like Cuba have better health, education and housing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of Chaves or Fidel. I'm anarchist, but I realize that social democracy (which bolivarianism is akin) is the next best thing at the moment. Much better than the right wing militar dicatorships that ruined our society before them and is still trying to take the power by force again.

We've seen it countless times. Allende and Jango were elected by the people and sufferered militar coups just like Chaves.

You've mentioned the street protests. The right wing is aproving a new law that will allow then to label any protester as a "terrorist". 30 years in jail, no bail. This is the ghost of the right wing dictatorship that never went away.

The best countries to live in the world are not the richer ones, but those who favoured social equality. Corrupt governments are terrible, doesn't matter if they're left or right oriented. It's silly to judge social policies based on assumptions that aren't intrinsic of the system.

@ the idea of the UK being in good shape because of leftist policies.

I have said BETTER shape than Brazil. To be fair I haven't been on many UK countries, only in England (London, Hull, York, Leeds and a few other small towns), but the difference is huge. For example, in 2012 Britain had 552 people murdered. Brazil? Over 50.000. Access to housing, education and health played a major role on that. I've also noticed that the police force there were regular citizens and it was very rare to see one carrying a gun. The police force here is militar, something that began on the right wing dictatorship and still persists strong as ever.

 

[DanLights]

I'm just posting to say I really don't like talking about this, it can get me really pissed if I see anyone supporting Chavez or Maduro's government in any way, and when I get really pissed I get nowhere. You guys go on, I'll just keep hoping my sisters or cousins don't get killed by the low life scumbag pieces of shit who respond to everything with absolute pointless violence in order to "defend" their shitty fucking flawed to the core system that keeps them ignorant and happy about it.

 

[narcossintese]

I'm just posting to say I really don't like talking about this, it can get me really pissed if I see anyone supporting Chavez or Maduro's government in any way.

You gotta understand that it's not about the figure in power, but about democracy.

I see you live in Spain, so I'll assume you're spanish. You should probably know what Spain did to Venezuela, and how many people it opressed and killed in the last 300 years.

Chávez was elected president by the people in a democratic way. In 2002 the millitary did a coup d'édat. They removed the demoractic ellected president and put Carmona in power.

The first thing he did was: ban the constitution, dissolve the other public powers so he could rule as a dictator, arrest dozens of journalists, suspend civil liberties, break the medical deals with Cuba. Most countries reproved the coup, guess the only two that immidiately showed support for the militar coup: Spain and USA.

Fortunately the people of Venezuela wasn't intimidated. They've marched and restored Chávez, the one for whom they've voted for, as the president. You can hate Chavez all you want, but you gotta respect what the people of Venezuela voted for themselves. Venezuela is not a spanish colony anymore.

Here's a decent reading on the subject (it's in portuguese, but shouldn't be hard to translate):
https://we.riseup.net/assets/175551/Firmeza nos princípios, flexibilidade nas táticas.pdf

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

You gotta understand that it's not about the figure in power, but about democracy.

I see you live in Spain, so I'll assume you're spanish. You should probably know what Spain did to Venezuela, and how many people it opressed and killed in the last 300 years.

Chávez was elected president by the people in a democratic way. In 2002 the millitary did a coup d'édat. They removed the demoractic ellected president and put Carmona in power.

The first thing he did was: ban the constitution, dissolve the other public powers so he could rule as a dictator, arrest dozens of journalists, suspend civil liberties, break the medical deals with Cuba. Most countries reproved the coup, guess the only two that immidiately showed support for the militar coup: Spain and USA.

Fortunately the people of Venezuela wasn't intimidated. They've marched and restored Chávez, the one for whom they've voted for, as the president. You can hate Chavez all you want, but you gotta respect what the people of Venezuela voted for themselves. Venezuela is not a spanish colony anymore.

Here's a decent reading on the subject (it's in portuguese, but shouldn't be hard to translate):
https://we.riseup.net/assets/175551/Firmeza nos princípios, flexibilidade nas táticas.pdf

You should read what it says below his avatar, and then probably edit this post haha.

 

[DanLights]

You gotta understand that it's not about the figure in power, but about democracy.

I see you live in Spain, so I'll assume you're spanish. You should probably know what Spain did to Venezuela, and how many people it opressed and killed in the last 300 years.

Chávez was elected president by the people in a democratic way. In 2002 the millitary did a coup d'édat. They removed the demoractic ellected president and put Carmona in power.

The first thing he did was: ban the constitution, dissolve the other public powers so he could rule as a dictator, arrest dozens of journalists, suspend civil liberties, break the medical deals with Cuba. Most countries reproved the coup, guess the only two that immidiately showed support for the militar coup: Spain and USA.

Fortunately the people of Venezuela wasn't intimidated. They've marched and restored Chávez, the one for whom they've voted for, as the president. You can hate Chavez all you want, but you gotta respect what the people of Venezuela voted for themselves. Venezuela is not a spanish colony anymore.

Here's a decent reading on the subject (it's in portuguese, but shouldn't be hard to translate):
https://we.riseup.net/assets/175551/Firmeza nos princípios, flexibilidade nas táticas.pdf

Thank you, I know pretty well what's going on. I was 8 years old when Chavez got elected, lived under his regime until I left Venezuela in 2009, and still know what's up thanks to family and friends all over the country.

Edit: Oh, and the "Venezuela is not a Spanish colony anymore" bullshit, cut it out. You assume a lot and make stupid comments that make no sense, who ever said anything about Spain controlling Venezuela, and who the fuck cares nowadays what the pilgrims did to the Indians 500 years ago? I said I don't like talking about the situation of Venezuela because I get angry really quickly, I'm starting to think it was a bad idea to even post here at all.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

Left or right, you go extreme enough and you get completely insane policies.

 

[egan.]

Left or right, you go extreme enough and you get completely insane policies.

I'll add that if you have a corrupt dictator, tyrant or military rule the theoretical policy goals are irrelevant because they're a fictitious means to an end.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

I'll add that if you have a corrupt dictator, tyrant or military rule the theoretical policy goals are irrelevant because they're a fictitious means to an end.

Yeah that's the problem with hypothetical utopias (world peace, communism etc...). They require human beings to implement.

 

[narcossintese]

Oh, and the "Venezuela is not a Spanish colony anymore" bullshit, cut it out. You assume a lot and make stupid comments that make no sense, who ever said anything about Spain controlling Venezuela, and who the fuck cares nowadays what the pilgrims did to the Indians 500 years ago?

It matters because Spain backed up a fucking military coup to overthrown a democratically ellected president. Maybe you were too young to understand what happened in 2002, but you were there. Are you going to deny Aznar role on it? You know that it is not just "something made 500 years ago". I really would like to know your opinion about Pedro and the coup, PM if you will, but I'm a firm believer that the worst democracy is better than the best dictatorship.

 

[AD Chaos]

You assume a lot and make stupid comments that make no sense

Totally. Why must there be a troll on standby ready to ruin this kind of threads. EVERY single time. Narcossintese, you don't know the members in this board AT ALL apparently, boasting wild assumptions left and right, not even realizing you're trying to school a Venezuelan on what Venezuela actually is, about how Spain is doing (when he lives and breathes in there) and trying to lecture Drew on how the UK is doing
If you start pulling random statistics and charts while throwing Hitler into the mix, I'm going to think you're Mutant

Sorry for being harsh but I'm going to ignore your posts because you don't make sense on them.


Back OT, I get what you're saying Dan, the Venezuelans I've spoken with, they seem to be somewhat willing to discuss the whole situation at first, but before long just want to break from subject..
Kind of weird in a way, I've expected them to be really angry, yet they seem more like sad, disillusioned, or just plain uncomfortable to have the whole thing brought up..
Communism is always roses until you actually have to deal with the real-word consequences of the whims of their dreaming, idealistic Marxist leaders.

Fwiw, the opposition has nowhere to go but up in numbers. I'm sure there are better times ahead for Venezuelans in the coming years

 

[narcossintese]

Totally. Why must there be a troll on standby ready to ruin this kind of threads. EVERY single time. Narcossintese, you don't know the members in this board AT ALL apparently, boasting wild assumptions left and right, not even realizing you're trying to school a Venezuelan on what Venezuela actually is, about how Spain is doing (when he lives and breathes in there) and trying to lecture Drew on how the UK is doing
If you start pulling random statistics and charts while throwing Hitler into the mix, I'm going to think you're Mutant

Sorry for being harsh but I'm going to ignore your posts because you don't make sense on them.

Well, let's talk topic by topic them, because I can backup my arguments with real data. Be it about UK or Venezuela. Being born in a place isn't an argument, by the way. If you really think that the countries I've said that invested in social policies aren't in better shape than Brazil (a richer country) then I would love to see a real argument, or at least prove that the displayed data is false, instead of just saying "you don't make sense".

Your claim that Venezuela troubles are because of left social policies is as false as saying that the dude from the other post that you referred was attacked by antifas just because he was white.

Point is: it's wrong to judge a whole spectrum of political guidelines based on corruption, because you will also find the same degree of corruption on the right.

Your list here:

- Crime rates and murders now run rampant
- No police presence on the streets (and if they are, they're utterly corrupt, dangerous and politicized)
- Scarcity of even the most basic necessities (like toilet paper)
- Nauseous smell by the streets, because there's not even garbage collection services
- Random, prolonged blackouts all over the country
- A decaying, unattended infrastructure on many fronts (even in the oil industry)
- Gas shortages, services through the roof in cost while crappy in quality, etc

Has nothing to do with "leftism". I live on a right wing oriented country that have all the problems above on a greater scale, and instead of being the very first in social equity on the continent, it's the fourth worst.

As much as I despise Maduro (and Lula, Obama, Fidel, Kim, Putin, etc) I don't think another coup would make the world any better.

 

[DanLights]

Well, let's talk topic by topic them, because I can backup my arguments with real data. Be it about UK or Venezuela. Being born in a place isn't an argument, by the way. If you really think that the countries I've said that invested in social policies aren't in better shape than Brazil (a richer country) then I would love to see a real argument, or at least prove that the displayed data is false, instead of just saying "you don't make sense".

Your claim that Venezuela troubles are because of left social policies is as false as saying that the dude from the other post that you referred was attacked by antifas just because he was white.

Point is: it's wrong to judge a whole spectrum of political guidelines based on corruption, because you will also find the same degree of corruption on the right.

Your list here:

- Crime rates and murders now run rampant
- No police presence on the streets (and if they are, they're utterly corrupt, dangerous and politicized)
- Scarcity of even the most basic necessities (like toilet paper)
- Nauseous smell by the streets, because there's not even garbage collection services
- Random, prolonged blackouts all over the country
- A decaying, unattended infrastructure on many fronts (even in the oil industry)
- Gas shortages, services through the roof in cost while crappy in quality, etc

Has nothing to do with "leftism". I live on a right wing oriented country that have all the problems above on a greater scale, and instead of being the very first in social equity on the continent, it's the fourth worst.

As much as I despise Maduro (and Lula, Obama, Fidel, Kim, Putin, etc) I don't think another coup would make the world any better.

Now that does make sense, and I can see your point and agree. You mentioned real problems the country is having, and I agree it has nothing to do with socialism/left wing policies, it has to do with corruption and plain bad government. I really don't have a problem with a "left wing government" or maybe even socialist government (as much as both Americans and Venezuelans have learned to freak out at the mention of the word), the problem is the rampant corruption and just how broken and authoritarian the system has been since day one.

About being democratically elected though, for many years the government has used lots and lots of cheap tricks to move all elections in their favor, like assigning voting places to people who have been dead for 20+ years and voters going with several IDs voting several times, also moving people around to unreachable voting places randomly, slowing down the process and fucking up registration abroad (because 90% of Venezuelans abroad vote against Chavez/Maduro) and other things I have seen firsthand and/or heard from family and close, reliable friends, so I stopped considering it a "democratic" government long ago, specially with the constant new laws preventing the media to expose what's going on, instating a dictatorial-like state of praising the president like a god in all government offices, where public workers are forced to go to demonstrations in favor of the government (forced as in "you're going or you're fired", literally) even to other cities, just putting them all on buses to make it look like a big crowd for TV and newspapers, where criticizing the government in any way or even suggesting that you might not be in favor will land you in great trouble due to verbal and even physical threats and constant harrassment from coworkers and superiors. And again, this is not something I've just seen on papers or heard people post on facebook, this is stuff I know from very close family and friends.

 

[DanLights]

And as an extra, this video seems to be a pretty comprehensive and reliable source for a summary of what's going on, ignore the gay movie soundtrack and people praying at the end, that's just how South Americans are, hahaha.

http://youtu.be/EFS6cP9auDc