Reactionary Darkthrone

[Fando]

I thought this was pretty much self-explanatory in the sense that the newfound reverence for 'heavy metal', will find its way as an influence in the new material.

There is no "new found reverence" you literal-minded, humorless twat. He's listing bands he's been listening to and making JOKES involving Brocas Helm vs Slipknot patches.

 

[Scourge of God]

I am actually not aware of any. Care to enlighten me? Also how does this comes into play against my argument?

You argue that a move toward heavy metal would be, in essence, a reaction against the NSBM movement, but DarkThrone's own history links it at least as closely to nationalist and totalitarian iconography as any NSBM act. You are, in practical fact, arguing that DarkThrone is reacting against...DarkThrone.

What? I have no info on this but having heard my share of Bathory and Cirith Ungol (much more) I simply do not hear it. One band attempting epic metal doesn't sound like another band attempting epic metal necessarily.

But bands making slow, epic, lengthy metal songs with folk inflected melodies and frequent accoustic passages while making use of similar iconography are pretty obviously similar. It's not my fault that your familiarity with Bathory is fairly limited.

But it's peripheral to my argument since the issue isn't what Bathory were listening to, but what second wave black metal bands were listening to.

Your line of reasoning went like this: since Bathory, Venom and Hellhammer formed the obvious touchstones of early black metal, then Cirith Ungol and Omen obviously weren't bands that Fenriz et al. would have been listening to. My point is that one of the dominant influences on the development of black metal was obviously influenced by Cirith Ungol (who were hardly as 'underground' as you imply - their most influential album was released on what was at the time the largest metal label in the world, as were all of the Omen releases). It stands to reason that most fans of Bathory were also familiar with Bathory's major influences - just as most bands who cite Slayer as an influence also are fans of Judas Priest.

Especially since by far the more influential Bathory material are the early noisy stuff.

But it was the 'viking' era albums that were most influential in terms of imagery. Everybody in the Norse scene was just as familiar with Hammerheart as they were with The Return....

I am aware that the names mentioned in interviews are not all that's listened to. But the case is, what names are mentioned are important because they're considered indicative of the direction that the band wants to go towards (amongst other possible considerations). At any rate, even if we were to accept that Darkthrone listened to Cirith Ungol in the 80's, I'd find it equally funny and to a degree telling if Darkthrone went today 'HAIL METALLICA!'.

How so? DarkThrone's career in the years following Transilvanian Hunger has been almost entirely consumed with homages to the music of their youth: Hellhammer (Panzerfaust), Bathory Ravishing Grimness, as well as Motorhead and Discharge (The Cult is Alive). If they do make a heavy metal leaning album, it would fit neatly within that career arc, with no need for esoteric references to NSBM and 'reactionary' stances.

It's the KISS principle in action.

 

[Helm]

You argue that a move toward heavy metal would be, in essence, a reaction against the NSBM movement, but DarkThrone's own history links it at least as closely to nationalist and totalitarian iconography as any NSBM act. You are, in practical fact, arguing that DarkThrone is reacting against...DarkThrone.

Precisely. In my opening post I outlined that they're invalidating themselves, especially their considered 'prime' era by making fun rock and roll music. This isn't the only way they've done this, as you well point out they've been a tribute band to their various likes and influences for a while now, but it does strike me as particulary interesting that Heavy Metal might be next.

But bands making slow, epic, lengthy metal songs with folk inflected melodies and frequent accoustic passages while making use of similar iconography are pretty obviously similar. It's not my fault that your familiarity with Bathory is fairly limited.

More like I am extremely familiar with Cirith Ungol, and only moderately with Bathory. I am in fact that familiar with Cirith Ungol that I can tell you there's hardly any 'acoustic passages' in their music. There's a few songs that have clean (electric) instrumentation, but they don't usually intersect with the metal material. I can argue the 'folk' melodies either way, because this is a nebulous concept to apply to a rock band (what band has not had any 'folk melodies' I'd like to know) but oh well. It's just interesting that you came to the conclusion I am not familiar with Bathory right out of the blue there.

I continue to not see much in common between Cirith Ungol and Bathory. Especially anything 'obvious to anyone with ears'.

My point is that one of the dominant influences on the development of black metal was obviously influenced by Cirith Ungol

Your point is under inspection. This would be a good time to let me know of some source that connects Bathory with Cirith Ungol because otherwise we'd just have to agree to disagree on having different sets of ears on this one.

(who were hardly as 'underground' as you imply - their most influential album was released on what was at the time the largest metal label in the world, as were all of the Omen releases).

Label doesn't have much to do with it in this -sad- case. Otherwise, you better let what's left of Cirith Ungol know how popular they were in the 90's because they surely disbanded under as they had put it, a severly disappointing ten-year career of absolutely no positive financial return or artistic recognition. We live in 2007 and now it's 'cool' to like Cirith Ungol suddenly and download their records from the internet. It wasn't always so. I know of them because I live in greece and the guy that got me into metal had eclectic taste. Once they were 'the worst heavy metal band there is'.

It stands to reason that most fans of Bathory were also familiar with Bathory's major influences - just as most bands who cite Slayer as an influence also are fans of Judas Priest.

Actually this is not so much more than it is so, I propose. It's mind-numbingly strange how bands are influenced by the last generation of metal before theirs, but sometimes know little or nothing about the influences of their influences, or even if they do, they don't like them. A band influenced by In Flames usually doesn't know At the Gates or find them 'not melodic enough', a band influenced by Candlemass doesn't know Black Sabbath or find them 'too blues, man'. So on.

Your claim is one I would only hope were real.

But it was the 'viking' era albums that were most influential in terms of imagery. Everybody in the Norse scene was just as familiar with Hammerheart as they were with The Return....

I agree. Again, degree of separation.

EDIT: wait, wait. I agree to what? The early Bathory imagery, what with the pentagram and goats is equally, if not more influential to Black Metal as a whole than their viking era iconography.

If they do make a heavy metal leaning album, it would fit neatly within that career arc, with no need for esoteric references to NSBM and 'reactionary' stances.

I do agree that it would fit their career, and I do agree that the rise and fall concept you suggest applies to a lot of bands, but usually bands like dismember or deicide when on the way out, start to ape their own eariler work. They become tribute bands to themselves. You don't see Dismember making a heavy metal record, or Death. And even Entombed who ended up this strange death and roll thing, the rock and roll influence was quite latter-day. Nicke has said a lot of times that when he was young he was into extreme metal pretty much 100% and only later he started to appreciate rock and roll.

 

[Scourge of God]

Precisely. In my opening post I outlined that they're invalidating themselves, especially their considered 'prime' era by making fun rock and roll music.

Here's what you originally wrote:

Now we are supposed to believe Fenriz has been listening to his Cirith Ungol and Brocas Helm LPs from the 80's all this time. Expect a lot more of this reactionary embracing of Heavy Metal by disgruntled black metal bands in the future. Understandable because of all the racist idiots surrounding the 'Wagner as Black Metal PURE ROMANTIC ART NO my pals' scene, but also a bit stupid in its own right.

You're drawing an obvious distinction between the 'racist idiots' in the 'PURE ROMANTIC ART NO my pals' scene and DarkThrone, and explicitly suggesting that any identification with 'heavy metal' must be a 'reactionary' step on the part of DarkThrone motivated by the NSBM scene. You're complaining about 'historical revisionism' that you can in no way prove, while practicing 'historical revisionism' in your own thread. Does the entire concept of irony escape you?

There is of course, a larger question you raise. How, exactly, does a band 'invalidate' their earlier work if in their later career, the quality of their material declines? All you've done is illustrate the point that Spinaza Ray Prozak and the ANUSites have been making for a decade and more: black metal blew its creative wad early on, then cannibalized itself in a way that threw aside everything that made black metal an artistically significant movement in the first place.

More like I am extremely familiar with Cirith Ungol, and only moderately with Bathory.

Thanks for confirming what I already said.

I am in fact that familiar with Cirith Ungol that I can tell you there's hardly any 'acoustic passages' in their music. There's a few songs that have clean (electric) instrumentation, but they don't usually intersect with the metal material.

Welcome to Bathory, and pretty much every other band with clean/accoustic passages. Oops.

I can argue the 'folk' melodies either way, because this is a nebulous concept to apply to a rock band (what band has not had any 'folk melodies' I'd like to know) but oh well. It's just interesting that you came to the conclusion I am not familiar with Bathory right out of the blue there.

I didn't come to the conclusion 'out of the blue' - I came to the conclusion based on your inability to recognize the many obvious convergences between classic (One Foot in Hell) Cirith Ungol and 'viking' era Bathory. That you then confirmed my analysis merely demonstrates that your whole show of indignation is a bunch of crap.

Your point is under inspection. This would be a good time to let me know of some source that connects Bathory with Cirith Ungol because otherwise we'd just have to agree to disagree on having different sets of ears on this one.

Do your own homework, kid. If you don't know, it's not my job to dig up the interviews for you. It should be obvious merely from listening, but then again, you haven't shown yourself to be particularly bright or observant, so I don't know why I would expect you to make the obvious connection.

Label doesn't have much to do with it in this -sad- case. Otherwise, you better let what's left of Cirith Ungol know how popular they were in the 90's because they surely disbanded under as they had put it, a severly disappointing ten-year career of absolutely no positive financial return or artistic recognition.

The band's most popular and influential album was released in 1986 on METAL BLADE, then the largest and most widely distributed metal label in existence. It is worth noting that One Foot in Hell has remained in print since its release and got significant coverage in the major American and European 'zines and rags at the time of its release (as did Omen, who also were on Metal Blade). These bands may be 'obscure' now, but only because they stood outside the general arc of metal's subsequent development. They weren't any more 'underground' at the time than bands we now think of as genre staples like Fates Warning or Helloween.

We live in 2007 and now it's 'cool' to like Cirith Ungol suddenly and download their records from the internet. It wasn't always so. I know of them because I live in greece and the guy that got me into metal had eclectic taste. Once they were 'the worst heavy metal band there is'.

You're what, 18, 19 years old? And you're lecturing the rest of us on HISTORY?!!!

Actually this is not so much more than it is so, I propose. It's mind-numbingly strange how bands are influenced by the last generation of metal before theirs, but sometimes know little or nothing about the influences of their influences, or even if they do, they don't like them. A band influenced by In Flames usually doesn't know At the Gates or find them 'not melodic enough', a band influenced by Candlemass doesn't know Black Sabbath or find them 'too blues, man'. So on.

Maybe that's the case among younger fans, but I can't think of any bands who approvingly cite their influences and then trash the influences of those influences.

EDIT: wait, wait. I agree to what? The early Bathory imagery, what with the pentagram and goats is equally, if not more influential to Black Metal as a whole than their viking era iconography.

Not in the Norse scene, it wasn't. Only Mayhem (who were contemporaries rather than descendents of Bathory) and Gorgoroth really played the Satanic element strongly, the rest of the bands pushed the pagan/medieval elements much more strongly.

I do agree that it would fit their career, and I do agree that the rise and fall concept you suggest applies to a lot of bands, but usually bands like dismember or deicide when on the way out, start to ape their own eariler work. They become tribute bands to themselves. You don't see Dismember making a heavy metal record

Ah, Dismember and Unleashed have both made very heavy metal inflected records in recent years, and Deicide's recent releases are much more rooted in speed metal than anything from their classic era.

or Death.

And what, precisely, do you think Control Denied was?

 

[Helm]

You're being quite insulting, I suppose you can't help it? As I've told you repeatedly before, when there's no respect, there's no discussion. Therefore while there's a lot of meat to your last post besides the insults, I'll pass.

 

[Scourge of God]

Translation: your arguments have been crushed, so you're trying to regroup on the 'moral highground'.

How about dropping the twatish sermons about 'civility' and 'respect' and actually provide some sort of, you know, evidence to support your arguments?

 

[Jim LotFP]

How about dropping the twatish sermons about 'civility' and 'respect' and actually provide some sort of, you know, evidence to support your arguments?

Yeah, like being a complete dick will encourage him to address your arguments. Great job.

 

[Scourge of God]

Yeah, like being a complete dick will encourage him to address your arguments. Great job.

Well, politeness already failed, so that pretty much leaves ridicule, now doesn't it?

 

[skeptik]

Fenriz is evidently not purely Aryan anyway, based on this excerpt from a 2004 interview he did with Tartarean Desire:

Nicknames have been a really interesting subject. On the first album you used your real names (that in the re-release have been changed by the relevant alias). On “Ravishing grimness” your partner in musical crimes dubbed himself as “Nocturnal Culto” (I don´t know why). I´d like you to speak something about the Spanish element in your real name and Ted´s popular nick. Why “Nocturno Culto” instead of “Nocturnal Cult”? Have you ancestors based on South America or Spain?

Hahaha, you think HANK AMARILLO is my REAL name? Hahahaha, no it was just a joke, I was fed up with the idea of having finally an album out with the picture on the back and real name under so one could show their parents LOOK, HERE I AM! Pathetic. So imade up a WESTERN-NAME for myself! It got boring after a while. Too bad the re-release changed the name, though. My joke is almost lost! But the EVEN FUNNIER thing: I do have ancestors from Argentina! My brother got my fathers name Benito! GYLVE FENRIS NAGELL is my real name (“underground spelling&#8221 – or Leffie (hi Grutle and Linda!) don’t ask me about Nocturno Cultos name – we never discuss things like artistic choices much – that’s why we can still work together after all these years, among other things.

Also, here's a wealth of interviews ranging mainly from 91 to 94.

 

[MFTE Cam]

Sometimes these "discussions" give me a damn headache.

-Cam