relationship of mix/limiter/bass response question...

[nwright]

So, I got some crappy studio monitors, which were still head and shoulders above the speakers I was using...Upon first listen, they revealed some of the problems in my mixes that has been bugging me, and it has helped immensely in getting a better mix. But, at present with my mix, I have no "mastering" type plug ins running except for L2 on the master buss. But, I still can't seem to muster some good low end without muddying up the mix when using a limiter. But without it, the levels aren't up there in comparison with most recordings I hear. And, one of the things with my mixes is as you turn up the volume on a regular stereo, it almost seems like the mids/treble get louder as the bass stays the same - but it's still muddy. I'm still at a loss as to what to do, and I've been learning/mixing/attempting for about 3-4 hours a night for the last week!

I don't have the L2 doing a whole lot, really. my threshold is set at -2dB and it limits to -.2dB. The presets on the plug don't seem to be running that light, but that's what works for me. I've tried multiband compression and sometimes I think it works, other times I don't. I feel like I have good tracks to work with, so I'm at a loss. I'm not asking for presets or anything, just some insight as to techniques to try. I want a mix that has awesome low end, but doesn't get boomy or muddy, it stays defined throughout the volume spectrum (on a car or home stereo).

Anyone care to rip me apart or give some tips? I have just about any plug in or I'll get it at this point to get this to work!

 

[James Murphy]

other than EQ, go back to the multi-band compression... you just have to get it right.. sounds like you haven't yet... getting the right attack time is key.

 

[~BURNY~]

And, if your room isn't properly treated, think about standing waves. You just can't do a good job if you don't know what's really happening especially when it comes to those dawn low frequencies. Grab some good headphones, you might be surprised. L2 giving such result at -2db sounds like too much lows.

 

[nwright]

other than EQ, go back to the multi-band compression... you just have to get it right.. sounds like you haven't yet... getting the right attack time is key.

Thanks. Is there a "general" rule when it comes to MBC and low frequencies in regards to attack time? I can understand and grasp compression in general with things like drums, as the attack and decay with percussive instruments illustrate the aspects of compression more readily (imo). But aside from bass drum, the bass guitars don't have a crazy attack like the thump/slap of a bass drum. OUr bassist uses a pick, but doesn't go crazy with the treble, so his attack is relatively smooth and soft.

 

[nwright]

And, if your room isn't properly treated, think about standing waves. You just can't do a good job if you don't know what's really happening especially when it comes to those dawn low frequencies. Grab some good headphones, you might be surprised. L2 giving such result at -2db sounds like too much lows.

Why would this be? How does -2dB indicate this to you? I'm sure there are some bass frequency issues, as my listening position sounds great when you are sitting there, but stand up and the bass is all crazy and loud. But, I burn it to CD and listen in my car (my most comfortable place to really "hear" on a stereo system) and the bass seems muddy and not there. I could understand muddy with the standing wave problem, but I'd think it'd be LOUD, not muddy and soft on a regular stereo system.

Thanks for your help guys.

 

[axeman720]

james is correct about attack times to start. attack and release are CRITICAL to understanding how compression affects your sound. but another good place to start is your low end in the mix. most people are very surprised how trimmed and neat you have to keep your low end in rock and metal to get things loud with losing the punch and to prevent crackle, smearing etc... just make sure there isnt too much low end goin on in places you dont need it. if it is going on try to give it its own space to prevent it from messing with how the limiter is reacting to the mix.

 

[DP40oz]

Hey man first of all great low end in mixing is the key. Its the hardest thing to get right. The L2 definitely pushes the mids and treble up more because the low end takes up more room so if your're pushing your L2 to get max volume its going to sacrafice the low end eventually to push more volume, theres just no more room for it.

First off you can try clipping your mix rather then L2 for volume. You'll get louder and keep the integrity of the mix more. Also heres a trick that I love. Throw the waves RBass plug on the bass guitar and it'll compress the low end so theres a perfect 80-100hz low end sitting for the bass and it'll notch out a perfect spot for it. Then find a great Kick drum trigger or eq your kick to sit more at 60hz. It takes some time to get used to but it tightens your low end like crazy and allows the bass guitar to be present on all systems even small ones and leaves the kick with a nice punchy spot for its own. Just my 2 cents man.

 

[egan.]

Why would this be? How does -2dB indicate this to you? I'm sure there are some bass frequency issues, as my listening position sounds great when you are sitting there, but stand up and the bass is all crazy and loud. But, I burn it to CD and listen in my car (my most comfortable place to really "hear" on a stereo system) and the bass seems muddy and not there. I could understand muddy with the standing wave problem, but I'd think it'd be LOUD, not muddy and soft on a regular stereo system.

Thanks for your help guys.

It will effect it in that you aren't hearing the bass frequencies correctly during the mix stage. I'm a little confused by your discription. 'Muddy' and 'not there' seem a little contradictory.

 

[cobhc]

Also heres a trick that I love. Throw the waves RBass plug on the bass guitar and it'll compress the low end so theres a perfect 80-100hz low end sitting for the bass and it'll notch out a perfect spot for it

what settings on the rbass do that?

 

[DP40oz]

what settings on the rbass do that?

I mainly just use the default setting which is 80hz. It helps alot also when lets say the bass player plays a C on the A string and all the bass cuts out on a subwoofer system, the RBass keeps it from cutting out, it just keeps a solid low end on there. I read about this trick awhile back, and then i saw Charles Dye do it in his "Mix It Like A Record" which sorta confirmed that this is definitely a known trick some real deal albums are using. If you've ever heard the song "Cold" by Crossfade i'd almost gaurantee Randy Staub used this trick or something similiar on that bass for example. Just my 2 cents guys.

 

[nwright]

It will effect it in that you aren't hearing the bass frequencies correctly during the mix stage. I'm a little confused by your discription. 'Muddy' and 'not there' seem a little contradictory.

Yeah, I know that seems confusing. WHen I have the volume of any system I'm listening through low, I can hear the bass and it's a tad muddy. As I turn up the system, it seems like the volume of everything BUT the bass goes up, so it's "not there" so to speak like the rest of the frequency spectrum. And, what IS there is still muddy.

Thanks for the tips and help guys. I'll try my hand again tonight to see what I can do.

 

[nwright]

Hey man first of all great low end in mixing is the key. Its the hardest thing to get right. The L2 definitely pushes the mids and treble up more because the low end takes up more room so if your're pushing your L2 to get max volume its going to sacrafice the low end eventually to push more volume, theres just no more room for it.

First off you can try clipping your mix rather then L2 for volume. You'll get louder and keep the integrity of the mix more. Also heres a trick that I love. Throw the waves RBass plug on the bass guitar and it'll compress the low end so theres a perfect 80-100hz low end sitting for the bass and it'll notch out a perfect spot for it. Then find a great Kick drum trigger or eq your kick to sit more at 60hz. It takes some time to get used to but it tightens your low end like crazy and allows the bass guitar to be present on all systems even small ones and leaves the kick with a nice punchy spot for its own. Just my 2 cents man.

If I do clip the mix or try to run it as loud as I can get it, I think I do better, as that's what I'm used to with my history of ghetto recording (4 track portastudios and stuff). I usually will mix without the L2 to taste, and then plug it in to see how it does in the mix to get me a normalized -.2 or 0 dB max level. When I do that, that's when I have the problems, so I know it's me and my ignorance in regards to the relationship between how limiters and stuff work.

For me, I almost feel like my mixes suffer from using the Limiter and compressors, but I feel like they need to be there to make it "right".

 

[DP40oz]

For me, I almost feel like my mixes suffer from using the Limiter and compressors, but I feel like they need to be there to make it "right".

This is exactly the way i had been thinking for years. I would do my own master and throw an L2 at the end because "Thats just whats done" and its just not true. I've really been pushing my volume on some mixes lately just for fun to see the breaking point and i've found the L2 really distorts the sound if i clip hard, wheras if i just leave it off and clip hard the mix sounds great. Im not a huge L2 fan on hard rock at all, it really can mess a mix up, and i think thats what youre seeing first hand. For softer more alternative stuff i'll use it but don't feel theres any right way. Also if you're really concerned about pushing the mix down a little below 0 like -0.2 like you say just normalize it there after the clip, you don't need the L2 for that.

 

[nwright]

Well, I worked a bit more last night and got my mix 90% where I want it. I like how everything sits and how it sounds, but it still lacks low end punch. I can hear the bass drum and it's mixed well, but I wanna feel it, not just hear it. I may tweak the 60-100 Hz range a bit more to bring out the low end without getting muddy. But all the tips here have helped.

 

[greyskull]

Using several compressors in series all at moderate settings with the L2 last seems to work pretty well for me. for bringin up the level without crushing or pumping it. I normall use this for my mastering chain

Waves req to roll out the under 30 hz rumble
waves r comp on master opto fat so the track just tickles the threshold
Izotope ozone for a bit of eq matching and the tinyist dash of reverb
waves c4 on master opto
timeworks mastering compressor set to soft
and waves L 2 set to ultra

But i do know exactly what you mean about the low end.. its so frustrating, the hardest thing to get right i think. just keep doing the car test til you get it right!!
hope that helped