Shredding Opinions??

[jjmannford]

I saw Journey on Wed nite because of the killer setlist they have been playing. Mother, Father (best Journey tune by a lot IMO), Edge of the Blade, Chain Reaction, Keep on Runnin, Just the Same Way, Party's Over and Escape in addition to the usual favorites, but my god, Neal Schon is way over the top with his solos. He has created some of the best melodic guitar solos ever, but now all he does is shred, butchering up some of classics. He is an incredibly talented guitarist, which Journey and Steve Perry mostly likely have held him back, but he should understand that less is more. Sure its cool for a guitarist to play some flashes of speed, but it just gets way too tedious and boring if thats all it is. Whats the opinion of the rest of the Forum? I know a lot of you like metal/prog. Heavy is fine, but when it gets to the point 'I got the biggest balls because I can play faster than you', I just tune out. That is a lot of prog/metal to me. A big reason why Doug is one of my favorite guitarist is because, although he can shred his ass off, he doesnt resort to this fretwork masturbation . He plays with great restraint, creating wonderful emotional melodic solos. I know you, Doug, and me share that Neal Schon is one of our favorites, but after that concert I was a bit disappointed.

Take it easy,
Jim

 

[aabrewer318]

Jim, i agree with you completely and am amused by your designation of the term 'fretwork masturbation'. i am sorry however about Journey's disappointing show. Maybe he was just bored playing the same old solos for years and i'm sure then the 'ol wammy bar got alot of attention.

This is why i have never been into metal music for example (not that journey is any kind of metal). But i have friends that listen to metal and they point to, "How fast the double bass drumming is", or the nonstop riff's that are instead 'rips' that tear through the "song". Its all too much. The musicians are all talented of course, but i agree, its not all about speed. It reminds me of video games where the winner is the one who can push A + B on their Sega Genesis controller the fastest. But does that mean Sonic the Hedgehog will defeat the evil DR. Robotnic?? .............well its all about timing there.

I'm not a guitar player, ii'll be honest, but I am a guitar listener. Heavy and fast is great when it has something soft and melodic to contrast it. Juxtaposition.

Less is most definitely more. -Aaron

 

[yyzmoose]

Did someone say "less is more"? Clearly something I will NEVER say. Give me over the top pyrotechnics on guitar anyday! Of course I don't need that on every song, every solo. But sometimes over the top playing really DOES fit the music. I guess you can't be a Dream Theater fan. I can't imagine hearing a watered down DT without major shredding from Petrucci and Rudess. What a waste of their talents that would be. Keith Emerson anyone? Imagine ELP without the keyboard workouts? No, that is a horrifying thought. Then there is the wonderful world of fusion. I guess all of that style is out. No Mahavishnu Orchestra, no Dregs, no Return to Forever, no thanks! Then there are the Vai's and Satriani's of the world. I can't imagine dismissing them. SHRED IS GOOD! -Or at least it can be. I'm not talking wastes of time like Yngwie Malmsteen or Vitalij Kuprij, where all melody is lost for the sake of solos. I'm talking people like Tony MacAlpine or Eric Johnson or Frank Gambale or even Michael Romeo. The world of jazz, metal and prog are full of wonderful shredders who still are full of melody. Now a band like Enchant or Marillion or other melodic prog and or hard rock bands are a different story. Shred does not work in the contexts of the music. I wouldn't mind them stretching things out intrumentally speaking, but what they do works. Then there are bands in the middle of the road like Saga, they play melodic, almost poppy songs but manage to fit in extended instrumental jams full of shred. In more of a pop context, Toto did that as well, with the likes of Steve Lukather. The bottom line, if a guy can play, I want to hear it, I don't just want that 10 second tease. In a concert setting I expect more than a note for note rendition, so jamming and outright shred is always welcome.

 

[Frank]

I've felt that way about Neal for awhile. During the later days of Journey's prime, it seemed fast was good for him more so than the early early days.

There are days when I want to hear "shredding" then there are other days when I want the slow deliberate goodness that is Toni Iommi and David Gilmour.

 

[StocktontoMalone]

For what its worth:



All a band is trying to do is SELL AN EMOTION. If you can seell that emotion with a shred, so be it. But I don't want to hear 'fretwork masturbation' in a song that is supposed to evoke an emotion like 'Faithfully', or 'Open Arms'.

If you get the chance, pick up Neal's 'Beyond the Thunder' CD....it is absolutely the best CD to have sex to I've ever heard...

And if you want shredding, forget DT, forget YinYang Malmsteen....pick up ANY cd by MICHAEL ANGELO...

http://www.angelo.com/html/michael_angelo_batio.html

 

[Frank]

I'll add that Neal did some friggin' awesome shredding with HSAS.

 

[ebass]

Jim

Thanks for the update. I hope to see them in Sep out here. I hope Neal was just bored or in a bad mood? He is the master of the lightning rip in and out quick! That guy can fly in and out with the best melody! and thats what I think is the key, Eric Johnson Jeff Beck etc? if the shredding continues to long it gets really boring? Unless thats your deal? To me thats not really music just noise? I am into the shred as much as anyone in the right context but have a lot of trouple getting into a lot of these ridiculous prog metal acts? it is way too serious and dark as well? I prefer my shredding on all instruments in the Jazz Fusion areas? and if it has no groove under it then foregt it?

I agree with the less is more thing as well, but not always I am up for some amazing shredding as well as long as it is done with taste! Although sometimes the madness of the ripping is fun as well. Only if the tone is cool. There is nothing worse than horrible tone on the guitar especially!

Differant strokes heh?

NP : Weather Report : Teen Town Jaco Rules!

I saw Journey on Wed nite because of the killer setlist they have been playing. Mother, Father (best Journey tune by a lot IMO), Edge of the Blade, Chain Reaction, Keep on Runnin, Just the Same Way, Party's Over and Escape in addition to the usual favorites, but my god, Neal Schon is way over the top with his solos. He has created some of the best melodic guitar solos ever, but now all he does is shred, butchering up some of classics. He is an incredibly talented guitarist, which Journey and Steve Perry mostly likely have held him back, but he should understand that less is more. Sure its cool for a guitarist to play some flashes of speed, but it just gets way too tedious and boring if thats all it is. Whats the opinion of the rest of the Forum? I know a lot of you like metal/prog. Heavy is fine, but when it gets to the point 'I got the biggest balls because I can play faster than you', I just tune out. That is a lot of prog/metal to me. A big reason why Doug is one of my favorite guitarist is because, although he can shred his ass off, he doesnt resort to this fretwork masturbation . He plays with great restraint, creating wonderful emotional melodic solos. I know you, Doug, and me share that Neal Schon is one of our favorites, but after that concert I was a bit disappointed.

Take it easy,
Jim

 

[Ze Dan]

IMO you guys forgot Brian May and Steve Rothery. To me, May is the man, definitely

 

[The Stormbringer]

In general, I don't like shredding. I love a flashy guitar solo here and there, but only as long as there's a melody inside and the lightning chops are juxtaposed by slower portions, but as soon as the solo deteriorates into a mere bombardement of 32th notes, it's crap, just like Ed said. Too bad most of the newer (pseudo) geetar-progsters like it that way.
Fusion-ish shred by all instruments is a little better... equally as indulgent, but usually with more taste and, especially important, variety. Couldn't listen to that sort of stuff all day long, though... I'm about stuff a little simpler (not much simpler ), but more efficient.

For the record: May and Rothery are two of the freakin' best axemen out there, mainly because they know very well what to play and when to play it. Just like dear Alex Lifeson.

 

[|ngenius]

Well, perhaps this is slightly away from the original topic, but I think that Schon is a genius involved in a band where every member is a genius. Journey has proven a band can resist everything, even the departure of one of the most important elements as Steve Perry was. His replacement, Steve Augeri, kicks some serious asses at the vocals, and the duet Schon/Cain keep on giving us loads of emotional charges.

I wasn't there to see them live, and since I'm not living in the states, I never saw them performing live before. But imo Journey can't be compared to people like Yngwie Malmsteen, who clearly exchanges quality for speed (and I really like some Malmsteen's records, Odyssey above them all). Journey and Neal Schon have nothing to prove, because they already did as a band, and as single musicians. If you listen to records like "Just If I", where Schon teamed up with Mike Reno to bring melodies that don't abuse of personal exhibitions, or the solo albums by Jonathan Cain, you'll realize they know exactly what they are doing, digging up the best of music thanks to the skillful talent of these musicians. Look at the differences between the two Hardline albums: the first one powered by Schon's mastery, and the second one, even with Josh Ramos replacing Schon, clearly below in quality.

Now, Neal Schon is working with Jeff Scott Soto in a project called Soul Sirkus. I'm not so excited about this, since I'm not a huge fan of Soto's, but time will tell.

|ngenius.

 

[Burke]

like Yngwie Malmsteen, who clearly exchanges quality for speed (and I really like some Malmsteen's records, Odyssey above them all).
|ngenius.

Not a really big Yngwie fan here either - but Odyssey DOES kick major ass and has some outstanding tunes on it.

ALthough my personal thing about the album is the fact that he worked with Joe Lynn Turner, on vocals and co-writing songs. JLT was one of THE preeminant rock vocalists of the 80's hands-down.

 

[ebass]

Dan

I should be shot forgetting May and Rothery, I could list a bunch of others too.
Although May can rip as well!

Nice catch, thats why your Ze Man!

NP: Queen : Jazz

IMO you guys forgot Brian May and Steve Rothery. To me, May is the man, definitely

 

[|ngenius]

Nice catch, thats why your Ze Man!

Yeah, and that's why I'm Ze Robot.


|ng.

 

[dano1427]

..And I'm just Ze...

Wow, that was bad...

--dan

 

[The Wickerman]

Shredding is only good when it has substance. Guys like Shawn Lane or Al Dimeola can play fast, and keep it interesting, but guys like Yngwie and Michael Angelo just bore me to death. Give me a good solo over a fast one any day.

 

[Noctislord]

I like Enchant mainly because they limit themselves to the essence of the melody!
But i would hate symphony x if they were playing pentatonic solos only!I think the most sensitive musician is the one who concentrates his skills to enhance the melody.But it is better not be limited in technicicity so that you can give the most of what comes out of yourself.

 

[Douglas A. Ott]

Jim,



I understand your disappointment. I think you would have liked to hear the album versions live, which a lot of people do, and there is something to be said for reproduction but I also like some evolution in music as well. The live Enchant stuff is close to the original recordings but we like to add lib a bit here or there. I think Neal wants to show people how good he is because a lot of guitar lovers don't think he's that great. So maybe he is showing off his abilities...unfortunately to the detriment of the song.

Singers do this a lot too. Where they change the phrasing or melody because they are bored or something. Steve Walsh doing the Wall live comes to mind...I almost didn't recognize the song. David Lee Roth was a big culprit of doing this as well...he'd rather do kicks and run around than sing the tunes.

I saw Journey last year and they were great! Neal wasn't too over the top when i saw him. I talked to him for about 20 minutes after the show and he was very nice and gracious to talk with me for so long.



I think that there needs to be a fine line between shredding and melody. I prefer Images and Words Petrucci to his efforts on the last album; all he did was play 100 miles per hour on every song...boring! We know you can shred John, how about some melody every once in a while?



Anyway, that's my take.



Doug

I saw Journey on Wed nite because of the killer setlist they have been playing. Mother, Father (best Journey tune by a lot IMO), Edge of the Blade, Chain Reaction, Keep on Runnin, Just the Same Way, Party's Over and Escape in addition to the usual favorites, but my god, Neal Schon is way over the top with his solos. He has created some of the best melodic guitar solos ever, but now all he does is shred, butchering up some of classics. He is an incredibly talented guitarist, which Journey and Steve Perry mostly likely have held him back, but he should understand that less is more. Sure its cool for a guitarist to play some flashes of speed, but it just gets way too tedious and boring if thats all it is. Whats the opinion of the rest of the Forum? I know a lot of you like metal/prog. Heavy is fine, but when it gets to the point 'I got the biggest balls because I can play faster than you', I just tune out. That is a lot of prog/metal to me. A big reason why Doug is one of my favorite guitarist is because, although he can shred his ass off, he doesnt resort to this fretwork masturbation . He plays with great restraint, creating wonderful emotional melodic solos. I know you, Doug, and me share that Neal Schon is one of our favorites, but after that concert I was a bit disappointed.

Take it easy,
Jim

 

[ProgMetalFan]

I agree, Doug. Listen to Petrucci's solos in songs like "Take the Time" and "Surrounded".. there's much more feeling and melody than his recent output, in my opinion. He still played fast and technical... but the solos had meaning and supported the song.

 

[|ngenius]

I saw Journey last year and they were great! Neal wasn't too over the top when i saw him. I talked to him for about 20 minutes after the show and he was very nice and gracious to talk with me for so long.

That's the good thing about the Enchant members, they can keep a high level and give us amazing songs, and yet give some fan kind of talk as well. So natural, that's great.

As for Petrucci, well... I'm not so much into the recent Dream Theater stuff, and I really dislike the way Rudess is kept apart in the last album. But I've heard a lot of people praising the album, so it's a matter of tastes, I suppose.


|ng (Who doesn't know why Enchant don't come to Spain!! )

 

[tjpierce]

It's all about the melody to me. Playing like a bumble bee on speed isn't impressive if that's ALL you can do. The master of melody and a guy that can shred too is Neil Zaza (www.neilzaza.com). This guy is simply AMAZING and while he can blow you away with his chops (I've never heard anyone do sweeps like he can) the melody is always there.

Cheers!