Smoke and Mirrors on bass

[ElvenShadow]

Hey so ive been a bassist for like over ten years but havnt been actively playing for a very long time. I sorta started playing again and im trying to learn smoke and mirrors. Thing is... I play bass with a pick. Flame me if you want cuz I know theres a lot of elitists who think using a pick on a bass is blasphemy but thats just the way I learned and I never really made the effort to get good with my fingers. However, I know Lepond uses his fingers and the picking for the intro section is just so fast its often hard for me to keep up with the song. Any advice? Or should I just keep practicing over and over until I get it down? I can sorta keep up but it just sounds sloppy and unclear. The fingering is no problem, just the picking...

 

[DoomsdayZach]

Yeah, that can be the problem with trying to pick a fingered part, and vice versa. It never does sound quite right. Probably best to grab a metronome and work up to full speed, just like anything else

Sorry i couldn't be more help

 

[Horus]

It's not that it's blasphamy to use a pick on a bass. It's just stupid as hell; not to mention uneconomical. I don't think I've ever seen someone use a pick on a bass and not break it. And technically, while it might be more comfortable to play with a pick at first, it's actually much easier to not only play, but to write with your fingers also. There's A LOT of motions you can do with fingers that you can't do with a pick, like string skips, tapping, or fingering 2 basslines at once (like on a classical guitar or something)

Honestly, I say try getting your fingering down first, but I guess it's possible to play it with a pick. Either way, it all boils down to just practicing and practicing until you get it.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

Here's the thing: On the album version (Twilight) of Smoke and Mirrors, Thomas Miller (old bass player) doubled Romeo's guitar riff an octave lower. However, I've noticed that Lepond doesn't do this live. I believe that on the live album you can hear him playing root notes based on the keyboard chords, although I might be wrong. Bass-ically speaking, that riff is very muddy in general, and playing something so fast and intricate in such a low octave usually just sounds like mud. A pick might actually make the sound clearer, though.

I play with my fingers, and I've always thought that playing with a pick was actually harder (and more tiring on the wrist), so I don't really have any right-hand advice for you. As for the left hand, just practice Symphony X-like runs (there’s a common one in the heavy interlude of Candlelight Fantasia and the chorus of Inferno).

I made a MIDI of some of the riffs (the main one and the last solo section plus the crazy triplet run) slowed down to a groove feel at about half speed. Practice them around this tempo and you should have them down in no time:

http://www.divshare.com/download/3642796-6d8

I also have a full bass tab here:

DivShare File - Symphony X - Smoke and Mirrors [Bass].pdf

(click on Download Original on the right-hand side)

I wish I could get a PhD in "Symphony X Musical Analysis." That would be awesome.

 

[ElvenShadow]

Wow thanks dude, I will listen to the midi when I get home, right now im at work so I cant listen. So Lepond really just plays more basic stuff following the keyboard live? I figured he would just do whatever Miller did with all the older songs live as well but I never really thought about it so much. I dont think I remember from all the times ive seen them play SaM live. If thats the case the song would be much easier to play as the rest of the parts arnt giving me so much trouble.

In regards to fingers, I suppose I could try to get better with my fingers, the sound just comes out sounding so muffled. When I use a pick its much more clear and stands out. I understand completely though what you can achieve with playing with fingers as ive seen and heard so many great bassists using them. Its just for me it would be like working from the ground up. I suppose I could try it though. Is there a special technique anyone would recommend like when to use which fingers? Like do you always use the index middle and ring finger and just alternate between the 3 in the same order or do you sometimes switch it up and just use 2 fingers? My problem is establishing when to use which finger and it throws me off since im not used to it. Using a pick is just up down up down aside from exceptions when changing strings so my brain doesnt even have to think about it. Its just that my hand gets physically tired when I have to do it for so long at such a speed when trying to play that part of SaM. If it was mostly all on one string it would be less difficult but having to pick that fast and constantly switch strings is what gets me. I can play the part perfectly at about 3/4 speed but when i go faster it just sounds sloppy.

Also, ive never had a pick break since I use really thick bass picks, though of course using a medium guitar pick on a bass is going to be a bad idea in general

 

[DoomsdayZach]

i personally almost always use two fingers (index and middle) and very, very rarely throw in ring. There are tons of different patterns people use to help get faster/do other stuff involving the three fingers, but i prefer the steve harris method.

 

[1by4by9]

On the album version I don't think Miller doubles everything in the main riff. Here's what I think he plays:

F||----------------------------------|----------------------------------|----------------------------------|----------------------------7-5---||
C||----------------------------------|------7-6-7-------7-6-7-----------|----------------------------------|------------------9-6---6-9-----9-||
G||--0-0-7-0-0-3-2-0-5-5-5-5-7-7-7-7-|--0-0-------3-3-3-------5-5-5-3-2-|--0-0-7-0-0-3-2-0-5-5-5-5-7-7-7-7-|--8-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-----7-----------||
D||----------------------------------|----------------------------------|----------------------------------|----------------------------------||
A||----------------------------------|----------------------------------|----------------------------------|----------------------------------||

It's quite close to the Romeo's riff though. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs here.

 

[Seaoflies07]

I also use two fingers except for galloping i use three,but for some reason i haven't been able to use 3 for rapid fire notes...any advice?

 

[Phanto]

i personally almost always use two fingers (index and middle) and very, very rarely throw in ring. There are tons of different patterns people use to help get faster/do other stuff involving the three fingers, but i prefer the steve harris method.

Yeah same here. I'm a complete newbie at bass but I know this:

4-string, as big as possible and no pick = metal.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

I also use two fingers except for galloping i use three,but for some reason i haven't been able to use 3 for rapid fire notes...any advice?

It's hard to do in 4/4 time (or any time that isn't divisible by 3). Anything in 6/8, 9/8, etc., or in triplet feel is much easier, as each beat falls on the same finger every time. Another thing to get good at is ring finger strength... some people lead with their index, some with their middle, but to use 3 fingers effectively, you need to develop the same strength in all of them.

Remember that using three fingers isn't for everyone; some people's hands are shaped in a way that using three fingers is difficult (I believe Lepond only uses two for this reason). Some players also hold their bass in a fashion that makes a three-fingered approach illogical (Lepond plays his bass low and diagonally, whereas someone like John Myung plays it high and keeps his right hand perpendicular to the strings).

 

[Lucius Octavion]

Heres what I do. For playing triplets and things in compound meter I will use three fingers going like 3-2-1 , 3-2-1, etc. and for playing fast in 4/4 I use two fingers or 4-3-2-1. Either 4-3-2-1 or 3-2-1-2-3-2-1-2-3 etc. That's hard though. For rapid fires I would go a fast 3-2-1-2

 

[CantoX]

I don't know much about Bass playing, but wouldn't it be logical to have your thumb on the 4th, index on 3rd, middle on 2nd, and ring on 1st, so that all the bases are loaded? But it could just be that people's hands are shaped differently and etc.
I think of it like that because in classical guitar playing you're supposed to use your thumb for the bass strings and index, middle, and ring for the treble strings. So I'm just wondering..

 

[DoomsdayZach]

I don't know much about Bass playing, but wouldn't it be logical to have your thumb on the 4th, index on 3rd, middle on 2nd, and ring on 1st, so that all the bases are loaded? But it could just be that people's hands are shaped differently and etc.
I think of it like that because in classical guitar playing you're supposed to use your thumb for the bass strings and index, middle, and ring for the treble strings. So I'm just wondering..

no, because unlike a lot of classical guitar stuff you're rarely playing 4 strings in sequence or anything. With classical guitar you can get away with it because the bass note is not something you're focusing on... you're focusing on a melody. With bass you're often playing the two lowest strings for the *gasp* bass effect.

That's not to say there aren't times where you need to adjust your finger placement because certainly with some bass runs you have to do something similar to what you're saying, but overall that would be an incredibly awkward way to play.

 

[Meedleyx10]

The bass note(s) often are the focal point in classical guitar pieces

 

[DoomsdayZach]

The point was that you're not riding on the bottom two strings while largely ignoring the top ones.

 

[Meedleyx10]

zomg you called my opinion wrong....or something

 

[DoomsdayZach]

 

[Seaoflies07]

It's hard to do in 4/4 time (or any time that isn't divisible by 3). Anything in 6/8, 9/8, etc., or in triplet feel is much easier, as each beat falls on the same finger every time. Another thing to get good at is ring finger strength... some people lead with their index, some with their middle, but to use 3 fingers effectively, you need to develop the same strength in all of them.

Remember that using three fingers isn't for everyone; some people's hands are shaped in a way that using three fingers is difficult (I believe Lepond only uses two for this reason). Some players also hold their bass in a fashion that makes a three-fingered approach illogical (Lepond plays his bass low and diagonally, whereas someone like John Myung plays it high and keeps his right hand perpendicular to the strings).

great points and just for the record i pick with my middle finger followed by the pointer..for gallops i go middle,pointer and then ring.Also i wear my bass about the same as Myung just a little higher.

This is off topic but i have never found what gear Thomas Miller used,does anybody know what kind bass guitar or amplifiers he used?

 

[Lucius Octavion]

You can also go ring-middle-pointer-middle-ring and so on for three fingers in 4/4 time. Or use the pinky.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

This is off topic but i have never found what gear Thomas Miller used,does anybody know what kind bass guitar or amplifiers he used?

No idea, unfortunately. I know he used a five string quite often, though.