Speaker Stands, Your Thoughts and Experience

Soundlurker

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Nov 19, 2005
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I've been researching this topic a for a few weeks now and there seem to be a million views on what you should do to get the best performance out of your monitors.

Before I get into the theoretical part that most of you won't be that interested with, I want to ask about your experience with stands, pads, etc. Which worked best for you and for what speakers?

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Now some theories.

I am posting Moonlapse' post from another topic in which we started disscusing speakers:

After some research and Ethan Winer chipping in, we basically deduced it to this:

If you have a good, solid speaker enclosure (high mass, low resonance), then what you want to do is decouple that enclosure from the environment, to not transmit frequencies through solid surfaces. MoPads sort of do the job here, though purpose built stands tend to be more effective, especially if there are multiple points of decoupling.

If your speaker enclosure is low mass and vibrates fairly easily, well then you're after something with high mass to couple to your speaker. This would include 1) a good, solid, heavy speaker stand and 2) Something like the Primacoustic Recoil Stabilizers. You basically just want something heavy to couple its mass to your speakers. Some people use sandbags, others cinderblocks etc. MoPads are no help here.

The ASP8s are the heaviest and largest monitors I've ever had. That inspires confidence as to their enclosures' self-damping properties. As a result they sit on little rubber feet on the base plate of the stands, and the stands themselves are filled with sand (to not vibrate sympathetically with the speakers), and stood on carpet spikes (to stabilize them, and prevent rocking, or back and forth motions which could lead to frequency cancellations).

Sounds logical. But so does this:
knightfly@John Sayers' forum said:
The important requirements for a nearfield speaker stand is that it

isolates speaker vibes from the floor some way,
doesn't move around,
doesn't introduce any audible resonances, and
puts the speakers at an optimum height.
In order -

Isolating vibes - this could be done at floor level, using some sort of damped elastomer such as butyl rubber; good part about this is that it causes the weight of the stand to be included in the weight of the speaker - in this version the mass-spring-mass would be floor (first mass) butyl rubber (spring) and the entire weight of the stand, sand-fill, and speaker (which would be solidly attached to the stand in this case)

Isolation could also be done at the junction between speaker and stand - in this case you'd have the sand-filled stand (and part of the floor) as the first mass, then something like a MoPad or butyl pucks (the spring) between the stand and the speaker (the speaker being the second mass) -

The problem with this arrangement is that most speakers aren't heavy enough by themselves to properly compress a high duro material to at least 10% of its thickness - a lighter duro (spongier) material, while allowing proper compression, will allow speakers to rock at higher listening levels due to the force of the cones moving back and forth.

One way around this would be to place heavy steel plates on top of the speaker to increase the upper mass of the mass-spring-mass assembly - this would keep MSM resonance lower, keep rocking to a minimum, and still isolate speaker resonances from the rest of the room.

The reason this isolation is important is that sound travels faster through solids than it does through air; so if your speakers are solidly coupled thru the stands to the floor, and thru the floor to your desk, then it becomes possible for the desk to radiate the sound to your ears BEFORE it gets there thru the air - this scenario will cause smearing of higher frequencies thru phase differences, and just generally cause muddier sound.

doesn't move around - Having a solid stand and speaker helps this - if your "spring" is located between the floor and the stand, it needs to be pretty firm. This means that to achieve low resonant frequency (subaudible) you need pretty heavy stands and speakers in order to get at least 10% compression of the spring material.

The reason for this is that ANY spring, be it metal or rubber or whatever, is ONLY a spring when it is NOT at either end of its travel. Example - take a spring from a Hummer or a Mercedes sedan, and allow someone to hold one end of it and hit you in the face with the other end - after you regain consciousness, you'll probably agree that it wasn't very "springy" - this is because it's designed to hold a 6000 pound car (or at least 1/4 of it) so in a free state, until you load it with about 600 pounds it acts as a solid piece of steel. It's the same way with rubber or butyl or any elastomer that's used as a spring - until you get away from the two extremes of travel, the material acts as a solid. This precludes it from becoming your spring in this mass-spring-mass assembly.

So the solution to this is either use fairly stiff (like 60 durometer) rubber under your stands so they won't rock, or put your "spring" further up the column so the "rocking force"(speaker cone movement) can't cause things to move as easily. This would be where the springy material is between speaker and the top of the stand.

doesn't introduce any audible resonances

These can be caused by insecure interfaces between speaker and stand (no pad of any kind), not enough mass on either side of the spring material to keep MSM at sub-audible frequencies, or using a 4-point base on the stand without having some sort of adjustment to keep all 4 feet firmly in contact with the floor.

puts the speakers at an optimum height

This is covered in the Acoustics forum - basically, you don't want your speaker's woofer to be within about 6" from the center of your room height, measured NOT from any acoustic absorber but from the hard surfaces - see "are my speakers in a null" in the acoustics forum for more on this.

One simple (if inelegant) way to accomplish all this is to buy some hollow concrete blocks, stack them up to about a foot below half your ceiling height, put some MoPads on top, add your speakers, and generate a slow sweep signal into the speakers while listening for resonances. Rattles will be caused by lack of firm connection between two objects, louder frequencies will be caused by either room modes (see the thread in acoustics again) SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response - similar to modes but caused by speaker placement relative to walls/floor/ceiling) or not enough mass on either side of the MoPads (or other rubber product)

Edit: and of course there's a whole bunch of other comments after the pictures in this thread: link
 
Knightfly seems quite on the ball there. I don't think much of what I said is at odds with what he's suggesting, but all the same I would take his suggestions over my own without a doubt. I'm no acoustics scholar (at least so far), so I would take the advice from someone who frequents the Sayers forum.

The issue at its heart is a simple one, but can get complicated by a few factors. The most important thing to note is that you want to effectively decouple your speakers from your surroundings. That's a given. This can be complicated by the methods you choose to do so, and how they relate to the mass of your speakers. Heavier speakers are generally more desirable, due to their inherent increase in stability and ability to compress the spring material (the ultimate supports I have came with 4 rubber feet.. i don't know how optimal they are, but they seem to be doing the job). Lighter speakers need to have heavy mass coupled to them (sandbags, heavy steel plates, or Recoil Stabilizers!) BEFORE they are subsequently decoupled from the environment. Knightfly talks about this on the 'isolating vibes' paragraph. I use the second method with my stands, partly because my speakers are heavy I think I can get away with it... though all the same I don't know whether the 4 rubber feet are effective enough as decoupling tools, and whether the small air gap subsequently created between my stands and speaker enclosures causes any boundary interference effects. That I would like to hear more about.
 
The speakers I'll be dealing with are on the light side (8kg/piece), so I am thinking of coupling them to a DIY sand-filled stand. I'll first try them without decoupling the stand from the floor (probably not a good idea given the hardwood floor) and then with decoupling between the stand and the floor. Finally, I'll also decouple the speaker from the stand in both of the aforementioned cases, just for comparison's sake.
 
For sure. You could also try using Recoil Stabilizers on the stands as both a mass coupler to your speakers, and a decoupler to the stands. Heck if you wanna go crazy, try some sandbags or heavy plates on top of the monitors as well as the Recoil Stabilizers, then you can potentially get away with having the stands coupled straight to the hardwood floor (though I suppose in theory it's still not entirely preferable).
 
The performance of the monitors (or speaker themselves) can be increased by ensuring the gain staging is right, and that they in an optimum position (with respect to room characteristics etc).

Decoupling them means that there isn't as many vibrations going up through the cabinet and also out of the cabinet and rattling through into other rooms and objects. This creates an inefficiency by transferring the potential sound energy into kinetic energy, which will reduce the output (if you're worried about output "loudness").

But, even with decoupling them from the room and having them in an optimum position will only be half the battle if you're not using decent cables and gain staging.

[imo!]
 
Not to rain on any ideas here, but I personally wouldn't get too caught up in all of this theory. The number of times that I see pro studios just sitting monitors straight onto the meter bridge etc leads me to believe that your money could be better spent on treating the room. Room problems are going to have a far greater effect on your mixes than perfectly isolating your speakers. Recoil Stabilisers at £70 EACH? I'd much rather spend that on bass traps. So long as you speakers are stable and at the right height, and decoupled sufficiently (cinder blocks or MoPads) set it and forget it IMO. I have my HS80's on cinder blocks (free) and I don't get any vibrations through the desk.
 
Room treatment is of course important in its own right, but proper decoupling of speakers plays a fairly substantial role as well. I don't exaggerate when I say that placing my monitors on sand-filled Ultimate Support stands absolutely CLEARED up the lower midrange, made the overall sound of the monitor more 'hi-fi' and also improved stereo imaging ever so slightly. Not to mention you get more flexibility on where to place the monitors, as opposed to need to stand them up on the desk. Whether we're dealing with room acoustics, or internal speaker cabinet enclosure acoustics, it's all the same thing and based on the same principles. Decoupling speakers is as important as treating your room.

The Recoil Stabilizers are overpriced because they're a bit of a gimmick product, and to be honest I would recommend a good stand over them any day of the week (unless soffit-mounting floats your boat).
 
A more hi-fi sounding monitor always seemed like a bad thing to me, doesn't that take away from the flat nature of monitors?

No, in this case the muddyness was being caused due to my speakers coupling with my desk and sending vibrations through it, the floor and subsequently through me prior to the airborne waves getting to my ears.

Putting them on stands revealed more of the 'true' nature of the monitors. I didn't lose detail - I gained it.
 
Sorry, I misunderstood your definition of hi-fi because I always think of that term as meaning hyped bass and treble, and losing the flatness that you want in a set of monitors.
 
Let me just make it clear that I'm well aware of the importance of room threatment, monitor position and gain staging. I have already made some improvements to all of these. But I also have to mention that putting diy pads from rockwool between my monitors and desk made almost as much difference as adding a several acoustic panels. It cleared up a lot of mud and removed a lot of boominess present in pro recordings played back on my setup. I suspect this is not all that can be done and I'm pretty sure coupling the speakers to a solid stand will further improve things and especially the low end which I suspect suffers from unwanted speaker cabinet movement.

By the way, I'm not trying to put the blame for any shortcomings of my setup and mixes on speaker stands. It's just that currently my monitors are standing on a wobbly surface with a possible source of cavity resonance and I'll be moving them to dedicated stands. Naturally I want to get this thing right and forget about it.
 
To Moonlapse: I agree the Primacoustic Recoil Stabilizers do seem a bit pricey, but after talking with Mark Gummer, their rep here in Vancouver, he has assured me the most of the cost comes from the machining of the steel plate with the angle on the front. The margin is a bit higher on that item, though I will admit and it certainly doesn't cost as much as is usually being charged for it...

But that being said, there is a noticeable difference when using them and one that, after you've been using them for a while, becomes glaringly obvious without them. And as putting them on any non-decoupling surface like a console bridge or standard monitor stands will cause coloration in some form or another, I'd take a set of RX7's and a IKEA table before I shelled out for an Argosy desk. Call me crazy if you'd like. Many have. :loco:
 
Well they've got pretty dense acoustic foam as the base, but then a 1/8" thick piece of precision cut steel and then a layer of neoprene (and they're heavy as hell!), so they're just supposed to be a lot more stable than the comparatively gooshy MoPads - I haven't a/b'ed mine with MoPads, but I know nothing gets through to my upper desk shelf with my Primacoustics!
 
Room treatment is of course important in its own right, but proper decoupling of speakers plays a fairly substantial role as well. I don't exaggerate when I say that placing my monitors on sand-filled Ultimate Support stands absolutely CLEARED up the lower midrange, made the overall sound of the monitor more 'hi-fi' and also improved stereo imaging ever so slightly. Not to mention you get more flexibility on where to place the monitors, as opposed to need to stand them up on the desk. Whether we're dealing with room acoustics, or internal speaker cabinet enclosure acoustics, it's all the same thing and based on the same principles. Decoupling speakers is as important as treating your room.

The Recoil Stabilizers are overpriced because they're a bit of a gimmick product, and to be honest I would recommend a good stand over them any day of the week (unless soffit-mounting floats your boat).

Ok, well I guess the proof is in the pudding, as they say, maybe I might benefit.....Are you using Mopads/RX7's underneath the monitors as well?