Stock tubes vs JJs : Significant difference!

[H-evolve]

I have recently purchased an ENGL Savage 120. Its brand new, I had a serious deal on one. So it obviously comes stock with ENGL tubes, ECC83s preamp tubes and 6550 Power Tubes.

I borrowed also another ENGL Savage 120 from a friend, that's had it for a long time. He recently put new tubes in it, JJs in the Preamp (not sure if 12AX7 or ECC83, but I don't think this changes something) and JJ KT88 in the Power section.

So I was able to do an A/B comparison, and the Retubed Savage sounds quite different. It's got a lot more bottom (I assume due to the KT88) and the "grain" of the distortion is not as dry (if you know what I mean). I was especially surprised by the added bottom. The Master knob was definitely not high, so I assumed the Power Tubes would not contribute much. I guess I am wrong.

To me, the Retubed Savage sounded better. I have read from people of this forum that they experienced the same with a 5150. So I'm now considering retubing my amp, even if it's brand new (that would void the warranty I guess...).

I was definitely not expecting to hear a difference like that. Was expecting something very subtle. I am starting to understand now why people talk about how brands of tubes! I never thought it would do much of a tone difference...!

 

[TRUIE]

Care to elaborate on the A/B protocol ?
Did you recorded it before and after in the same conditions, and then A/B listening the clips ?
Or are you just speaking about your global feeling playing it after, then before changing the tubes ? (which is way different)

I ask this because I just changed all the preamp tubes in my JCA50H for the first time, from stock chinese ones to Tung Sol 12ax7 all the way.
While there is a slight improvement, the difference is still very very subtle and I was able to hear that with before/after clips I recorded.

EDIT : oh, and aren't 12ax7 and ECC83 refering to the same thing ? (just US vs EU nomenclature)

EDIT2 : OK, I read a bit too fast and thought you were speaking about the same head before and after changing the tubes, my bad !
So yeah, different power tubes can changes the sound a lot (I mean, not that much from switching from 6L6 to another 6L6, but going for something else like EL34, KT88...etc). But keep in mind that 2 heads with the same tubes setup can also sounds very different too, depending on the model, year of production...etc. Don't know if there was some changes in the Savage120 production.

Also, my point still stands, as are you speaking about your global feeling playing both heads, or did you reamped the same DI's into both heads setted up the same, then aligning the RMS and listening/switching from one to another ?

 

[H-evolve]

Care to elaborate on the A/B protocol ?
Did you recorded it before and after in the same conditions, and then A/B listening the clips ?
Or are you just speaking about your global feeling playing it after, then before changing the tubes ? (which is way different)

I ask this because I just changed all the preamp tubes in my JCA50H for the first time, from stock chinese ones to Tung Sol 12ax7 all the way.
While there is a slight improvement, the difference is still very very subtle and I was able to hear that with before/after clips I recorded.

EDIT : oh, and aren't 12ax7 and ECC83 refering to the same thing ? (just US vs EU nomenclature)

EDIT2 : OK, I read a bit too fast and thought you were speaking about the same head before and after changing the tubes, my bad !
So yeah, different power tubes can changes the sound a lot (I mean, not that much from switching from 6L6 to another 6L6, but going for something else like EL34, KT88...etc). But keep in mind that 2 heads with the same tubes setup can also sounds very different too, depending on the model, year of production...etc. Don't know if there was some changes in the Savage120 production.

Also, my point still stands, as are you speaking about your global feeling playing both heads, or did you reamped the same DI's into both heads setted up the same, then aligning the RMS and listening/switching from one to another ?

Sure, the A/B was pretty simple, and perhaps not entirely thorough, as I have not mic'ed the two amps. It's just me, sitting at the exact same spot in front of the cab, with the exact same setting on both amps (and also same setting on overdrive). I played a riff with the new Savage for a minute. Then turned it off, connected the speaker cable to the old one, turned it on, and played the same riff. There was a clear difference, just sitting there in front of it. My friend who was more sitting "off axis" heard the same thing.

Testing the two in a mic'ed setup would be a good idea. At that time I didn't feel like it was that relevant, since the Retubed Savage is not mine, I'm not going to use it in futur recordings! I still have the retubed ones, so maybe next weekend I'll try a mic'ed comparison. I expect to hear a good difference, since it's quite obvious just sitting in front of them.

And I thought exactly the same as you, regarding older productions. I tried finding something on the subject and wasn't able to find anything on ENGL Savage 120, as to whether or not there might have been changes throughout the years.. I only know they switched the orange power button/switch to a red switch. Should not affect the tone!

 

[TRUIE]

Yeah, didn't want to question your ear at all, just meant that psycho acoustics can tricks you a lot on that kind of things.

Otherwise, I think that most of the difference comes more from the 6L6 > KT88 switch (and the bias), than going from stock ENGL 12ax7 to another brand of 12ax7.
Did your friend heard a big change when doing the switch ?

Some clips would be great yeah, if you have the occasion

 

[H-evolve]

Yeah, didn't want to question your ear at all, just meant that psycho acoustics can tricks you a lot on that kind of things.

Otherwise, I think that most of the difference comes more from the 6L6 > KT88 switch (and the bias), than going from stock ENGL 12ax7 to another brand of 12ax7.
Did your friend heard a big change when doing the switch ?

Some clips would be great yeah, if you have the occasion

Yes, I should still have the amp next weekend (practice / recording day), so I'll Reamp the same riff with both and post samples.

I think you're right, switching from types is gonna do a lot of change. Switching only from brands should be a bit more minimal. However, there is a video on Youtube of a guy doing an A/B of an ENGL E530 Preamp where he switched his ENGL preamp tubes for JJs. The difference is quite interesting, and it's just a preamp... His video might not be HD quality (?) and his tone you can like or not,, but the point is you can still hear something interesting, at least in my opinion.

 

[MrBongo]

EDIT : oh, and aren't 12ax7 and ECC83 refering to the same thing ? (just US vs EU nomenclature)

yup

 

[H-evolve]

Update on this: I've put JJs in my new Savage and I also made the switch for the KT88 instead of 6550. The difference is not that major, meaning that the big tonal difference was coming from the fact that the other Savage I had tried with the KT88 was an older generation (I assume between 5 to 10 years old). In the new Savage there is some difference, it is less edgy with the KT88, however clearly not close to the old Savage.

So, I don't know what ENGL has done to the Savage in the last few years, but they made it more much mid focused, with a lot less bottom, and slightly more edgy. At least that is what I find when comparing both of them, with pretty much the same tubes.

I wouldn't say it's a bad thing, but I prefer the tone of the old one! Sucks that I just bought a new one...

 

[TRUIE]

Interesting.
Did you re-bias after switching to KT88 ?
Any before/after clips to share ?

 

[H-evolve]

Interseting.
Did you re-bias after switching to KT88 ?
Any before/after clips to share ?

Clip should be coming next weekend (I leave my amp at our studio, which is not in my house). Yes, the amp was sent to a tech who told me he did some adjustment on the bias, but he mentioned that it didn't need a lot of adjustment. Plus, he mentioned that the power tubes are running quite cold (which is typical on most high gain amps).

There is a change in tone from the change of tubes, BUT! definitely not as big of a change as I was hoping for. That was not enough to bring the tone close to the one from the old Savage I borrowed.

If possible, I'll try to borrow it again and also record it.

 

[newamerikangospel]

The tech commenting that it is biased cold leads me to believe he either biased the kt88s based on what the 6550s were, or that he only measured bias and didn't touch it. A proper bias of the power tube could very well be the difference in tone you are missing.

 

[H-evolve]

The tech commenting that it is biased cold leads me to believe he either biased the kt88s based on what the 6550s were, or that he only measured bias and didn't touch it. A proper bias of the power tube could very well be the difference in tone you are missing.

Ok, you could very well be right, but I would have done the exact same as him. The KT88 have a similar rating as the 6550, so why put a different current in them, then the as manufactured current?

You are basically saying that the tone difference in the other one could mean that the tech decided to run them hotter than what ENGL normally sets. Which is not a bad thing, that's not what I am saying.

But then what is "a proper bias"?

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

I hate to burst your bubble but all stock Engl preamp and power tubes are JJ tubes. Look at them together side by side. They are the same internally. The star shaped getter is the key give away. Maybe the stock tubes were old and worn. The Engl ECC83 and 6550 are JJ tubes relabeled by Engl. There are only 4 tube plants still making electron tubes in the world... So many share a similar origin. Bias settings don't effect the Savage as much as due to its design, your mostly only hearing the preamp... The power amp simply adds clean volume (with little coloration or distortion).

 

[H-evolve]

I hate to burst your bubble but all stock Engl preamp and power tubes are JJ tubes. Look at them together side by side. They are the same internally. The star shaped getter is the key give away. Maybe the stock tubes were old and worn. The Engl ECC83 and 6550 are JJ tubes relabeled by Engl. There are only 4 tube plants still making electron tubes in the world... So many share a similar origin. Bias settings don't effect the Savage as much as due to its design, your mostly only hearing the preamp... The power amp simply adds clean volume (with little coloration or distortion).

Humm... that's funny, I was told Electro-Harmonix or Sovteks for ENGLs. Maybe it changed it the last years and it's now JJs?

Anyway, thanks for the tip and nonetheless, I am still happy with the tube change, the amp is now A LOT less noisy. On high gain, with possibly an overdrive, it was impossible to use it without a noise gate.

As for the tone coming from the pre-amp, well yes, as is the case for many high gain amps no? I mean, not all of them of course, but many of them.

Since you seem to know the Savage and ENGL products, any idea what could explain the tone difference between an old one and a new one? Do you happen to know if indeed ENGL did something to them in the last years so that the tone has seen changes?

 

[newamerikangospel]

Ok, you could very well be right, but I would have done the exact same as him. The KT88 have a similar rating as the 6550, so why put a different current in them, then the as manufactured current?

You are basically saying that the tone difference in the other one could mean that the tech decided to run them hotter than what ENGL normally sets. Which is not a bad thing, that's not what I am saying.

But then what is "a proper bias"?

Bias is generally colder from manufacturers because of tube life. Heat breaks everything down, more heat the faster it breaks down. I can't think of any reason a tech would comment on your amp being cold biased if he was the one who biased it. The kt88s have a very similar profile, but have higher wattages than 6550s/6l6s (40watts vs 30watts I believe), so a "normal" bias would become cold.

In my experience, the power amp bias will be the difference between good tone, and a roar. A cold bias will lack bottom end and have a weird high end response.

 

[H-evolve]

Bias is generally colder from manufacturers because of tube life. Heat breaks everything down, more heat the faster it breaks down. I can't think of any reason a tech would comment on your amp being cold biased if he was the one who biased it. The kt88s have a very similar profile, but have higher wattages than 6550s/6l6s (40watts vs 30watts I believe), so a "normal" bias would become cold.

In my experience, the power amp bias will be the difference between good tone, and a roar. A cold bias will lack bottom end and have a weird high end response.

His comment on the amp running cold is that he checked the current going through the original tubes before removing them. His comment was related to the original setting.

As for the rest, what do you set your bias current to then? 50% of its maximum rated current? Even more?

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

Humm... that's funny, I was told Electro-Harmonix or Sovteks for ENGLs. Maybe it changed it the last years and it's now JJs?

Anyway, thanks for the tip and nonetheless, I am still happy with the tube change, the amp is now A LOT less noisy. On high gain, with possibly an overdrive, it was impossible to use it without a noise gate.

As for the tone coming from the pre-amp, well yes, as is the case for many high gain amps no? I mean, not all of them of course, but many of them.

Since you seem to know the Savage and ENGL products, any idea what could explain the tone difference between an old one and a new one? Do you happen to know if indeed ENGL did something to them in the last years so that the tone has seen changes?

All Engls have been shipping from the factory with JJ preamp and power tubes for the last 7-8 years. Some amps get more coloration from the power section or the power plays a bigger part in the feel and overall tone of the amp. The Engl SE with EL34s would be an example.

Sometime in 2011 or thereabouts, Engl changed the output transformer in the Savage 120 to a much larger more robust OT. I've had 3 Savages so I've seen and heard the difference first hand. The newer post 2011 Savage sounds much better. Bigger, fuller, louder, just more massive. You can also spot them as they have a red light up power switch also.

The Savage is a killer amp. One of my favorites.

 

[H-evolve]

All Engls have been shipping from the factory with JJ preamp and power tubes for the last 7-8 years. Some amps get more coloration from the power section or the power plays a bigger part in the feel and overall tone of the amp. The Engl SE with EL34s would be an example.

Sometime in 2011 or thereabouts, Engl changed the output transformer in the Savage 120 to a much larger more robust OT. I've had 3 Savages so I've seen and heard the difference first hand. The newer post 2011 Savage sounds much better. Bigger, fuller, louder, just more massive. You can also spot them as they have a red light up power switch also.

The Savage is a killer amp. One of my favorites.

Yup, the power switch color difference raised my supsicion a few weeks ago. ENGL confirmed that it was on more recent Savages, but the guy I talked to wasn't able to confirm what other modification had been done.

So you know more about their products than they do!!!

Thanks for your answer. If you feel like the newer Savages are bigger, fuller, louder, than the tone difference on the older one I was lended (with a yellow switch) probably comes from the amp being bias so that the tubes get more current.

At least that is the last thing I can think of. I'm surprised that higher power tube current can do such a tone difference though...!!! :|

By the way, I was able to bring both amps back to my apartment, so this week I'll record an A/B comparison that I'll link here in this thread.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

Lol! I've owned about 10-12 Engls so I'm pretty familiar with them. The newer version does sound better. It's nice to see they are constantly improving their products though.

I'd like to hear a comparison clip. That would be cool.