Subwoofers for monitoring?

[GuitarMaestro]

So far I did all my mixes with nearfield monitors only, but I feel I just cannot judge the frequency rage below 200HZ properly without adding a sub. Therefore I usually have to switch between studio, car and home stereo in order to get the bass range right.

Two questions:
1. Am I just to dumb to get the bass right on nearfields or do I need a sub? Do the pro's use a sub or just the nearfields?
2. Any recommendations on subwoofers that are not that expensive(arround 350$)? I am looking at Tapco SW-10, ESI SW-10K, M-Audio BX-10s, Fostex PM-05 SUB MkII....etc.

Thanks in advance,
MK!

 

[sparkyness]

First questions would be what Nearfields are you using now and have you acoustically treated the room you want to mix in?

The conditions of the room along with the placement of speakers can have a dramatic effect on bass response. For example, if your monitors have rear bass ports and they're positioned too close to a wall, you can get some nasty rear bass reflections which make it very difficult to mix the bass range.

A decent set of Nearfields and a well treated room should be more than enough for home/project studios.

 

[GuitarMaestro]

I am using Tapco S-5 and have no acoustically treated room, however I placed them well in the room and they have more than enough bass.
It's just that I feel that most nearfields I used and heard so far dont have a high enough resolution in the frequencies below lets say 200HZ to make precise judgement in that area.
They sound good and you know what's going on, but you cannot mix nearly as precise in that area as let's say in the are betweem 1KHZ and 1.1KHZ I think.
I never had access to really expensive pro nearfields though....maybe they offer the resolution?

P.s.: My mixes translate very well above 200HZ, so I doubt my nearfields or placement in the room distorts things that much....I know that this often has more drastic effects in the bass range, but I am not concerned over how bassy or not my mixes are. What annoys me is the coarse resolution of these frequencies....

 

[GuitarMaestro]

I see no one wants to answer my long winded post...hehe. So just answer me a simple question then: How do the pros out there judge the bass range of their mixes? With nearfields only? With nearfields + sub? Or with a set of big hifi speakers?

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

Nearfields only (Mackie HR824) as far as I'm concerned.

 

[sparkyness]

....and I still think you're better off investing in acoustic treatment for a room than a sub. If you're looking for better "judgement" in the sub 200khz range bass traps and/or broadband absorbers will most definitely help.

If anything, adding a sub to an untreated room will make things more difficult. I recommend checking out John Sayers forum for some good info re: rooms & bass response

 

[chadsxe]

For sure...I just got back from a mastering session in which the Engineer said when he moved to his newely designed room that haad much better acoustic treatment he no longer need a sub. That his bass was coming through SOooOO much clearer now.

 

[s34nsm411]

i was reading a chris lord-alge interview and he mentioned that he uses mostly ns10s and some sort of infinity sub for monitoring

i definitely have to switch over to my pc speakers which have a sub to judge the low end right, it seems like if i can hear any bass at all on my krk rp8s its too much. but on my pc speakers ive been listening to music with them for years so even though the sub is loud as shit i know how it should sound

 

[Jackal_Strain]

i was reading a chris lord-alge interview and he mentioned that he uses mostly ns10s and some sort of infinity sub for monitoring

i definitely have to switch over to my pc speakers which have a sub to judge the low end right, it seems like if i can hear any bass at all on my krk rp8s its too much. but on my pc speakers ive been listening to music with them for years so even though the sub is loud as shit i know how it should sound

You actually make a very good point. Mixing on speakers you're used to often gives much better results than mixing on expensive speakers(like geneelec, adams etc).
But then again, once you're used to those Genelecs there's no going back

 

[chadsxe]

You actually make a very good point. Mixing on speakers you're used to often gives much better results than mixing on expensive speakers(like geneelec, adams etc).
But then again, once you're used to those Genelecs there's no going back

I find that to be far from the truth. Mixing on consumer speakers I am use to usually produces a mix that is good only on those speakers. Mixing on moniters in well balanced room usually produces a mix that sounds good on a lot of speakers.

 

[sparkyness]

+1. Reference checks on "familiar" speakers/systems are always a must though.

I A/B my Tannoy Reveals with cheap creative (shite) speakers when I'm almost done with a mix and after the fact double check on my mp3 player, girlfriend's boombox, and even run it through my crap TV speakers to make sure it translates well.

I've found starting with a good source makes this a much quicker process too. Listening thru good monitors and a well treated room while tracking (or getting tones pre-tracking) will save you a lot of heartache as well.

 

[AStacy2]

I find that to be far from the truth. Mixing on consumer speakers I am use to usually produces a mix that is good only on those speakers. Mixing on moniters in well balanced room usually produces a mix that sounds good on a lot of speakers.

+1

 

[Aaron Smith]

it seems like if i can hear any bass at all on my krk rp8s its too much

Yeah dude, as a fellow KRK-RP8 user, I've lately been feeling the exact same way. The low end is really the only thing I struggle with in a mix, and it's frustrating to be familiar with the monitors but still not be able to judge the low end properly. Being that my room is not treated, I'm sure that it too is part of the problem, but I've pretty much decided that investing in some additional near fields would be an extremely good/sensible idea. I'm still really thinking NS-10s, but I would need to get a good amp for them as well. I remember metalkingdom posted an e-bay link once to an amp that he said is often used with NS-10s, and it was only around $150...does anyone remember what amp that was?

 

[Jackal_Strain]

I find that to be far from the truth. Mixing on consumer speakers I am use to usually produces a mix that is good only on those speakers. Mixing on moniters in well balanced room usually produces a mix that sounds good on a lot of speakers.

Maybe I was a little unclear. I wasn't talking about "consumer" speakers. When I first started using Genelecs, my mixes sucked. So I had to crossreference with my old nearfields. I just wasn't used to the Genelecs.

 

[GuitarMaestro]

Wow! Quite some answer since last time I visited!

I am not sure what to think about room treatment. There is no doubt that it improves things, otherwise pros wouldn't do it and I can clearly hear it's benefits in many studios I have been to.
However I still have a very hard time imagening how it could offer a big improvement in the precision of the bass range for monitoring. Usually you do bass traps etc. to take away bass, standing waves, etc.
But we are talking about sound/precision here that the nearfields simply do not deliver, even if I am 3cm away from the cone with my ear. The room influence is absolutely neglegible in that case I think.
Aside from that why do most companies offer a sub designed for their nearfields if there is no need for it?

Dont want to say you are all wrong on this one....these are just the things that are not clear to me right now....

 

[sparkyness]

Bass Traps aren't for taking away bass frequencies. They're there to absorb any excess frequencies in that range that are caused/enhanced/reflected/distorted/misrepresented by the acoustics in the listening environment, not the source itself. These therefore assist in providing a more true representation of the bass frequencies when tracking/mixing. It's an important distinction.

Nearfields are meant to provide a flat response across all frequencies including bass. They're also not designed to be listened to from 3cm's away. Nearfield, yes...but not that near! . Although you might be surprised what reflections you can get from even that close away too....

My own Tannoy Reveals translate bass very well, but then again I have a treated room and have been playing bass for nearly 20 years so my ears are probably trained to analyse those frequencies well. Nearfields are not meant to enhance or colour bass or other frequencies which you run the risk of doing when adding a sub. While there may be some benefits in adding one, there's probably a greater risk of producing mixes with too much or too little bass. Most pro dudes can do just as good a job without one. The only time I might be inclined to use one would just for reference checking of a mix.

 

[nwright]

I remember metalkingdom posted an e-bay link once to an amp that he said is often used with NS-10s, and it was only around $150...does anyone remember what amp that was?

I'd be VERY interested to know this as well. Heck, I don't even know what's a good power amp in general for passive studio speakers...

 

[GuitarMaestro]

Bass Traps aren't for taking away bass frequencies. They're there to absorb any excess frequencies in that range that are caused/enhanced/reflected/distorted/misrepresented by the acoustics in the listening environment, not the source itself. These therefore assist in providing a more true representation of the bass frequencies when tracking/mixing. It's an important distinction.

Nearfields are meant to provide a flat response across all frequencies including bass. They're also not designed to be listened to from 3cm's away. Nearfield, yes...but not that near! . Although you might be surprised what reflections you can get from even that close away too....

That makes sense. I dont do my mixes 3cm away from my nearfields!
I just wrote it to make my point clear: I suspected that my nearfields dont give good enough resolution in the bass range no matter in which room they are. After reading your posts I will definately experiment with different placement, etc. before buying a sub though....

 

[smy1]

I might sound like an advertising machine for Stav, but:

get "Mixing With Your Mind" at Mixing with your Mind - he has great advice on placing your speakers in there (and tons of other really good info!).