tc finalizer for live?! (or other live main compression)

[xconnyx]

hey!

did anybody here used a finalizer for live sound before?
as for the fact that there are more and more db restrictions out there you can find more and more main-bus compressors in live setups especially on big european festivals.

such as avalon, kultube, l2 or l3 (waves stuff just for digi design digitals...), but i'm searching more for a solution to use with analog gear

i was wondering if a finalizer is worth to buy for live usage, to reduce peaks and to raise the average volume a little. by being able to cut down the db at a certain point but not losing volume and not to exceed the db limit given from the festival staff.

 

[arv_foh]

I honestly don't see using a $1000 compressor in a live situation being worth the increase in audible quality that you will actually be able to hear, unless you're mixing on, say, d&b audiotechnik or l'acoustics v-dosc...

I could be wrong though. My venue has one of these for house mix compression..

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/mdx1600.aspx

It works. Not much more I can say than that. If I was going to buy a high end compressor for live use, I don't think I'd spend more than $500 and probably end up with something like the Overstayer stereo comp.

You've also got to take into consideration that most processing/crossover units have some sort of limiting and compression built in.

 

[xconnyx]

i can see your point when it comes to mixing small clubs with loud bands..

but i'm searching for a solution to use with arrays like v-dosc, milo, ... festivals with more then 20000ppl in front of the stage and venues between 5000 - 20000.

db limitations, laws basically, are not a problem when it comes to clubs usually. as the stage volume is so loud that you barley have reasonable control of the actual sound pressure level. everybody will agree that mixing is not pulling in missing frequencies into the sound from stage, which in some cases can already be 105 db/a in small clubs and the law says something about 99,100,102...

on big outdoor festivals (pukklepop, szigit...) it is something else. as those are outside and the staff has to deal with the town for the db limit amd they sometimes go crazy on db meters... one time i've had a system that muted the pa system when exceeding a certain level for more then two peaks within 5 sec and un-muted after 20sec below the certain level... ridiculous...

usually you don't have much access to system controllers on festivals, or if you have, you don't soundcheck, just line check and go. so you dont have the time to figure out good settings for your band. this is why the tech crew usually provides stuff like a kultube, vt-747 to get rid of peaks in the not mastered live mix or worse automated leveling/muting (not limiting) systems.

spl kultube and the avalon vt 747 sound great for that purpose but are basically just compressing and not maximizing/peak/brick wall limiting. i know a couple of people using tdm waves plugins for digi design desks such as a venue console including waves l2 to do a "cheap master" live thing.

this is what i want to achieve with a finalizer maybe. as this unit has aes/ebu as well i could even use it directly connected to a digital console if provided for the tour, if not just use it analog.

 

[xconnyx]

btw, the problem about the limits are mostly the festival staff not the festival/local pa crew. they just have to stick to the rules given by the stuff.
as you may know, festival staff is might good in organizing a festival, booking bands and taking care of cartering and security but when it comes to technical points they sometimes have no idea what they are talking about and just point at the meter, no mater if set to db/a, db/c, spl-flat, leq-2min, leq-30min, fast or slow (because they have no clue where the difference is).

just read this:

 

[ahjteam]

I always use "Slow A" mode in SPL meters and on most places the mixes rarely exceed 98dB on the mixing desk, biggest audience was something like ~5000 people. I've used everything from Behringer to dbx to BSS to TC Finalizer to the Waves MaxxBCL and what not on the master insert. The Waves is pretty cool, I tried it when I was working at Gloria when they got it temporarely when their Nexo PA came and the supplier was out of the other dbx unit that came later. Damn that was a good sounding piece of gear... It's like Rcomp, RBass and L2 in hardware format. But it does require pretty big venue to take advantage of it because it brings out the mids pretty well.

 

[xconnyx]

the problem occurs when you are forced to do stuff like "96 db/a slow" with a desk 30 meters away from stage.

"98-99 db/a leq 30minutes" is not a big deal on big festivals, but if the staff (not the technical crew) is not aware of what they deal with "99 leq 30 minutes max" quickly turns into "96 db/c slow". i guess that it is sometimes the case that people think that they are being smart by reducing the limit a few db, to lets say 96 to have the band at 98 later. as they might think that everybody will be louder a few db no matter what the limit is. what is bull shit big time. "99 db/a" and "96 db/a" is a hell of a difference, "99db/a" and "96db/c" is even more a difference . and then they show up with a crappy db meter not set up properly (db/a turns into db/c) and basically you lose around 12 db just because officials don't know how to do their job properly. and of course, if you touch their meter and set it to the proper setting, you are pissing everybody off.

this is why i'm carrying a calibrated (including certificate) db meter, btw.

i'm not into loudness or spl whit this idea. i want to mix freely and not having my eyes, ears and mind on a db meter all the time including someone pissing me off by pointing at the meter all the time. if there would be a solution that limits at the given level (which i can configure pretty easy whit own gear), i'd like to go for it. and a brick wall limiting system including a multi band comp (especially for the lows, as they are usually pretty maxing out the db scale) totally make sense i guess.

 

[HeadCrusher]

Slightly OT: Is there a comparison/describtion of the different scales?

[...] db/a, db/c, spl-flat, leq-2min, leq-30min, fast or slow (because I have no clue where the difference is). [...]

:Spin: Thanks

 

[ahjteam]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting

 

[xconnyx]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting

+1

 

[arv_foh]

Wow, they have dB limits on specific frequencies??? That sucks man.

The finalizer would probably work well for you since you are mixing on those systems you mentioned.

 

[HeadCrusher]

thx

 

[xconnyx]

Wow, they have dB limits on specific frequencies??? That sucks man.

The finalizer would probably work well for you since you are mixing on those systems you mentioned.

well, that sheet is more a confusion. if you can not exceed 102db/a how could you be allowed to reach 108 db/a at 63hz?!

but anyway things like that happen

 

[xconnyx]

thx

usually db/a is used to measure concerts.

a and c are the most common. usual variations are how ever to measure peaks (fast and slow) or an average peak over a certain amount of time (leq over 30 minutes).

db/c displays a higher number then db/a does. this is just a guessing but 100 db/a can be about 108 db/c. this difference uccurs due to the "highpass filter" in db/a. as we have tons of low-end going on in live mixes especially around 50-63 hz (kick drum) db/c shows more level then db/a. "flat" response would show even more. db/a is used as the lower frequencies (which are high passed in db/a) wont hurt your ear so much as you mostly pick it up with your body and not your ears. as well as you lose high frequencies when your hearing is going to vanish. so db/a is more accurate in the "difficult" or better to say "sensitive" frequencies of the ear.

this difference between the different weight-systems (a,c,flat,...) is why it is very important to have a valid meter and a correct setup and proper info about the used db limitation.

most cases just state something like "100 db". which is basically no info at all.