The Art of Asking

jaimek

incorrigible
Jun 17, 2003
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Apex, NC
http://www.ted.com/talks/amanda_palmer_the_art_of_asking.html?source=facebook#.UTNNI2vbakB.facebook

I think people have been obsessed with the wrong question, which is "How do we MAKE people pay for music?" What if we started asking, "How do we LET people pay for music?"

I'm sure there are flaws with the idea, but this is the kind of dialogue that needs to happen. Rather than automatically assume everyone is a criminal who won't pay for anything... give them an opportunity to do so that isn't primarily padding the pockets of people who aren't part of the creative force. You'd be surprised how much people will give when you *trust* them to pay what they think is fair. There will always be freeloaders, but there were also always be people that give far beyond the average to balance them out.


Kingcrow is trying this: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/325130/

They're asking for $3000 to help them fund the US tour they're doing with Pain of Salvation, which they're paying out of pocket. With 5 weeks to go, they're not quite halfway there - but ten people, at least two of whom are in this UM community, thought it was worth contributing.

Even Glenn and Jen have touched on this, asking for Paypal donations to help give PPUSA a needed extra boost, and I know many people contributed to that as well.

I know *I'd* rather give $$ more directly to the bands, so I hope to see more of them venturing in this direction.
 
actually
this sounds like an awesome idea
if i'm understanding it corectly

i'd rather hand my money directly to bands as opposed to my money going into the pockets of "producers" and "managers"
 
actually
this sounds like an awesome idea
if i'm understanding it corectly

i'd rather hand my money directly to bands as opposed to my money going into the pockets of "producers" and "managers"

As one of Kingcrow's "managers" (in quotes since that's how you chose to word it), and the one who essentially thought of this campaign and set it up alone, I want you to know that every dime of this campaign is going to the band. Every single dime.

Maybe this will make you rethink your douchy opinion of "managers".

Carry on.
 
actually
this sounds like an awesome idea
if i'm understanding it corectly

i'd rather hand my money directly to bands as opposed to my money going into the pockets of "producers" and "managers"


Why exactly should "producers" and "managers" work for free? If bands didn't need them, do you think they'd pay for them?
 
http://www.ted.com/talks/amanda_palmer_the_art_of_asking.html?source=facebook#.UTNNI2vbakB.facebook

I think people have been obsessed with the wrong question, which is "How do we MAKE people pay for music?" What if we started asking, "How do we LET people pay for music?"

I'm sure there are flaws with the idea, but this is the kind of dialogue that needs to happen. Rather than automatically assume everyone is a criminal who won't pay for anything... give them an opportunity to do so that isn't primarily padding the pockets of people who aren't part of the creative force. You'd be surprised how much people will give when you *trust* them to pay what they think is fair. There will always be freeloaders, but there were also always be people that give far beyond the average to balance them out.


Kingcrow is trying this: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/325130/

They're asking for $3000 to help them fund the US tour they're doing with Pain of Salvation, which they're paying out of pocket. With 5 weeks to go, they're not quite halfway there - but ten people, at least two of whom are in this UM community, thought it was worth contributing.

Even Glenn and Jen have touched on this, asking for Paypal donations to help give PPUSA a needed extra boost, and I know many people contributed to that as well.

I know *I'd* rather give $$ more directly to the bands, so I hope to see more of them venturing in this direction.

I'm fine with crowdsourcing. I think that this crowdsourcing discussion is happening right now, when it was a big deal (and people were raising much more money too) last year is indicative how how behind the times the music business has become. But better late than never.

However, unlike with the video game industry kickstarter boom last year, it seems like there's this misinformed vocal group coming out with alot of expectations. Are the people who scare their fans and customers into buying records doing a disservice? Yes. Does that mean every recording artist should go DIY. No. Not even Protest The Hero is going DIY. In their latest interview with MetalSucks, they confirm that they plan to license their new album to labels for distribution, hire PR, etc.

The fact is, at the end of the day, crowdsourcing is just one way to get from A to B, but it's not the only way. There are mandatory services provided by PR people, managers, and booking agents that will ALWAYS be required from a band in order to achieve any amount of financial success. Whether the band wants to go through a record label, sacrificing back end earnings for front end cost reduction, or whether the band goes the DIY approach, the outcome is inevitably going to be the same. Out of sight, out of mind.

But in my mind, the fact that people like Monoxide Child (and he's certainly not alone, he's one sizable vocal group) have this misinformed notion that everyone in the music industry not an artist is a scumbag do more to hurt bands in the longrun than anyone else, because they perpetuate myths that ruin reputations. For one thing, nobody forces a band to sign with a label or to hire a manager or a PR professional or a booking agent. We as individuals have the freedom to decide the path we take with respect to the marketplace, but we also are responsible for understanding the consequences of our actions. When you sign up for a cell phone contract, it's no different from when you sign to a record company. You never see whiney metal fans complaining about how they deserve free cell phone service, but you see them whining about how an artist deserves services performed for them for free. A few weeks ago, somebody on this very forum asked "is there nobody in this industry not getting screwed" or something to that effect. Because apparently, to the metal fan though his rose-colored glasses views any kind of buisness relationship as an innate screwjob. People are making a big deal that PTH raised 300k like it's some ridiculous achievement when guys like Tim Shaffer raised around 4 mil to make an iPhone game like it was nothing. Nobody donated to Tim and Double Fine thinking that it would change the video game business. Video games require millions of dollars to make. But people accepted that the indiegogo model would be good for those small projects developers wanted to work on that a major publisher didn't want to waste time on. People understood this and moved on accordingly. Not with music. For some reason, people are assuming this is some sort of revolution when they're sadly mistaken.

It's a very sad world we live in, that metal fans have no concept of how business or finance works, and it translates to the bands. You see people like Amanda Palmer and Protest the Hero acting like this crowdsourcing is some special revolutionary thing, when in reality it's no different from signing to a label. Kickstarter or Indiegogo takes a cut from the donations pool, and of course metal fans neglect to mention that, and the artist inevitably depends on the same PR people, managers, agents, distros, labels etc, to perform the same services it needs to get the record out to everyone. Dcowboys put it pretty succinctly - if these people weren't necessary, they wouldn't be paid in the first place. It's not about "getting screwed" (although that does happen, and it's a very disgusting thing - this does not make it an innate, by proxy reality), it's about business. Because at the end of the day, this is the music business not the music charity.

Also OP, please do not take anything I've said in this post as directed to you at all.
 
Also OP, please do not take anything I've said in this post as directed to you at all.

Not in the least. I'm interested in what people have to say on the subject. I know that you have to have *some* middlemen involved in the process and that they deserve to be paid for their efforts, but my perception is that after so many people have a finger in the pie, there's virtually nothing left over for the band that made the music in the first place. I like the idea of being able to bypass all the bullshit and say "thank you, please make more music/tour here again" and know that it goes to the band, not split up amongst a bunch of people who don't really have anything to do with the process.
 
Why exactly should "producers" and "managers" work for free? If bands didn't need them, do you think they'd pay for them?

remember NSYNC changing record labels and suing their manager??

remember TLC having a Number 1 single and a number 1 albulm while filing for bankrupcy??

it's not just them, either

i personnally know local area bands and i know how managers and producers will fleece artists if they can

i just feel that the money should go to the artists first, and then the artist choosing to pay their managers/producers/profesional songwriters/public relations guys/make-up artists etc instead of a big-name studio taking the money first and screwing over the artists
 
So let me see if I understand this correctly..

Manager/Agent/Professional works their ass off to help the band "make it" for a year. Gets them a record deal, negotiate contracts, deal with the label, books a tour, etc. Makes nothing.

Then band decides to, hypothetically speaking, break up. Or whatever. Then band doesn't get paid.

Professional behind the band worked a whole year... For nothing? That's it?

You know, for someone who contributes absolutely nothing on this forum, but on a thread about comic books, you sure seem to come across as a know-it-all. Sorry, but the music business is a business like everything else. You provide a service, you get paid for it. Plain and simple.

What you're saying is basically like "Let me go to college and get my degree. Then when I start working and making money, I'll pay my university the tuition for those 4 years of studying." Doesn't sound like it makes sense to me.
 
So let me see if I understand this correctly..

Manager/Agent/Professional works their ass off to help the band "make it" for a year. Gets them a record deal, negotiate contracts, deal with the label, books a tour, etc. Makes nothing.

Then band decides to, hypothetically speaking, break up. Or whatever. Then band doesn't get paid.

Professional behind the band worked a whole year... For nothing? That's it?

You know, for someone who contributes absolutely nothing on this forum, but on a thread about comic books, you sure seem to come across as a know-it-all. Sorry, but the music business is a business like everything else. You provide a service, you get paid for it. Plain and simple.

What you're saying is basically like "Let me go to college and get my degree. Then when I start working and making money, I'll pay my university the tuition for those 4 years of studying." Doesn't sound like it makes sense to me.

Agreed on all points. Except the college comparison. With loans, that's more or less how it does work.
 
Agreed on all points. Except the college comparison. With loans, that's more or less how it does work.

Well no, with loans - you get a loan and you pay the University and then you have to pay the bank back + interest after graduation. While on the surface, this sounds like semantics, it's actually an important distinction, because the school would never under any circumstances benevolently give people a free education for no reason. It's a business. And yeah, Unis can give full rides or scholarships to students, but that's not done out of benevolence. It's done as a gamble so that it can turn around and claim that it gets exceptional students, which draws in more applicants. It's a profit deal.


remember NSYNC changing record labels and suing their manager??

remember TLC having a Number 1 single and a number 1 albulm while filing for bankrupcy??

Lou Pearlman is a sick criminal and frankly it's childish to assume that everyone in that business is as disgusting as he was.

As for the TLC thing, they signed their deals and should have worked out what they were getting themselves into. Again, when you sign a cellphone contract, you don't turn around weeks later and then cry about how you shouldn't have to be paying it. You're paying for service, data, etc, and the cellphone company has a right to charge you for that. You are certainly not entitled to it.


i personnally know local area bands and i know how managers and producers will fleece artists if they can

What does this have to do with anything? First of all, anecdotal evidence is good enough to support your point, and second of all you are obviously comparing managers and producers who are clearly not good at what they do with all managers and producers which is a ridiculous generalization.

i just feel that the money should go to the artists first, and then the artist choosing to pay their managers/producers/profesional songwriters/public relations guys/make-up artists etc instead of a big-name studio taking the money first and screwing over the artists

I feel like your employer shouldn't pay you a dime for your work because you don't deserve it. It's your employer's company, so they deserve the money first and foremost, and then choosing to do whatever it wants to do what that money instead of paying you just for helping them with your work.
 
A friend of mine linked this, recently.

I love the crowd sourcing thing. It's done the Thunder a lot of good, got our CDs and vinyl in more people's hands than we would have, before. However, something to note is that if we hadn't already gained a few fans earlier, it probably wouldn't have been as successful. So like, a band at the beginning stages wouldn't benefit from this. A band a few years in, with enough fans who care? Heck yes. People will pay money when they want to see it go toward something they like. The lady who did this video raised a ton of money because she already had a ton of fans, but it took a lot of hard work and dedication to get there.
 
Well no, with loans - you get a loan and you pay the University and then you have to pay the bank back + interest after graduation. While on the surface, this sounds like semantics, it's actually an important distinction, because the school would never under any circumstances benevolently give people a free education for no reason. It's a business. And yeah, Unis can give full rides or scholarships to students, but that's not done out of benevolence. It's done as a gamble so that it can turn around and claim that it gets exceptional students, which draws in more applicants. It's a profit deal.

so what about those countries where none of the students have to pay anything at all for any kind of college, how exactly does that work??




Lou Pearlman is a sick criminal and frankly it's childish to assume that everyone in that business is as disgusting as he was.
yeah, maybe i came across as apearing to make a broad generalazation, but you can't really make the assumtion going the other way either, it's ludicrous to assume that Lou Pearlman was one-of-a-kind, it's that kind of thinking that's going to get more bands ripped off in the future

As for the TLC thing, they signed their deals and should have worked out what they were getting themselves into. Again, when you sign a cellphone contract, you don't turn around weeks later and then cry about how you shouldn't have to be paying it. You're paying for service, data, etc, and the cellphone company has a right to charge you for that. You are certainly not entitled to it.
near as i could tell, the TLC thing looked exactly like the NSYNC thing with Lou Pearlman



What does this have to do with anything? First of all, anecdotal evidence is good enough to support your point, and second of all you are obviously comparing managers and producers who are clearly not good at what they do with all managers and producers which is a ridiculous generalization.
i think it's totally naive to just totally assume that the vast majority of managers and producers are actually nice people that won't make any kind of effort to rip off the band, this is stupid, random human beings don't really act this altruistically



I feel like your employer shouldn't pay you a dime for your work because you don't deserve it. It's your employer's company, so they deserve the money first and foremost, and then choosing to do whatever it wants to do what that money instead of paying you just for helping them with your work.

i agree with this, except i feel like the band should be the employ-er, not the employ-ee

it's the band that people care about, it's the band that's generating money
it's the band that should get paid first, a band should be able to get money by themselves with out using managers/producers/costume designers/make-up artists etc etc etc and if the band decides that they want to have these people, then these people should be working as the band's employees
 
so what about those countries where none of the students have to pay anything at all for any kind of college, how exactly does that work??

You still pay somehow, whether it's through taxes, a bank loan, etc.





yeah, maybe i came across as apearing to make a broad generalazation, but you can't really make the assumtion going the other way either, it's ludicrous to assume that Lou Pearlman was one-of-a-kind, it's that kind of thinking that's going to get more bands ripped off in the future

You have no proof to say not. The burden is on you, who made the claim that people are getting "screwed", to prove that people are in fact, getting screwed.

i think it's totally naive to just totally assume that the vast majority of managers and producers are actually nice people that won't make any kind of effort to rip off the band, this is stupid, random human beings don't really act this altruistically

Not only is this a piss-poor straw man, but I've said a few times now that business isn't supposed to be benevolent or altruistic, so why would I be assuming that human beings act altruistically in terms of financial or economical intent?(for the record though, I do think we are naturally inclined as a species to be altruistic - which is something backed by copious amounts of peer-reviewed research in academic fields, so it's certainly far from naive- but that's for another thread) The world isn't binary false dichotomies dude. You can be in business for the sake of making money, without "screwing" people.


i agree with this, except i feel like the band should be the employ-er, not the employ-ee

So you seriously agree that you should be working for free? Are you serious?

it's the band that people care about, it's the band that's generating money it's the band that should get paid first, a band should be able to get money by themselves with out using managers/producers/costume designers/make-up artists etc etc etc and if the band decides that they want to have these people, then these people should be working as the band's employees


Once again, nobody forces a band to hire anyone. We live in a free market economy. We're not slaves.
 
i agree with this, except i feel like the band should be the employ-er, not the employ-ee

it's the band that people care about, it's the band that's generating money
it's the band that should get paid first, a band should be able to get money by themselves with out using managers/producers/costume designers/make-up artists etc etc etc and if the band decides that they want to have these people, then these people should be working as the band's employees

i still stand by this

the band genereates money, if the band decides that they want/need to have producers/managers/liasons talking to the venues/costume designers etc etc etc, then those people should work for the band, where the ticket sales from a concert/sales from a CD go straight to the band, with the band writing contracts and the band controling how much their "management" makes
 
i still stand by this

the band genereates money, if the band decides that they want/need to have producers/managers/liasons talking to the venues/costume designers etc etc etc, then those people should work for the band, where the ticket sales from a concert/sales from a CD go straight to the band, with the band writing contracts and the band controling how much their "management" makes


You have a warped sense of how managers and producers work, brought on by whatever you read on TMZ and the like. I'll say this though, we can argue about how this stuff goes on with the popstars until we get blue in the face, but if you seriously think this is how it works in the heavy music world you are surely mistaken.
 
wait a second i never said i was describing how the american music industry actually works,

i was describing how it should work, you know, in a world where things are done logically