Theory Thread

[SADUDE]

I saw posts on other threads about people wanting a theory forum. But why not start here? If you find something interesting in a metal song (a cadence, chord progression, scale, key modulations, non-common time signatures etc etc.) post it here. I think this could be a valuable thread for the unknowlegable or for reinforcement to those of us that are decent to well educated on the subect. If someone has a question other people could try their best to answer it. I think you can see where im going with this. Just keep it in the theory spectrum.

 

[JesterRace]

I'll start off with a theory question to other metal guitarists that have been playing for a while:

I've been having trouble coming up with unique sounding solos for the songs that I write.. they really end up sounding the same because in my guitar playing I've never really taken the time out to learn a lot of different scales (big mistake). Usually I'll weave in a pentatonic scale of sorts (major or minor) or just an altered major or minor scale. And I learned a bunch of different positions in natural harmonic minor, because I liked the creepy feel it lent to the song. Other then that I was wondering if anyone could suggest to me what kind of other possible "exotic" scales to learn, or what modes sound most "metal". Some of my main influences are In Flames, Arch Enemy, Children Of Bodom, Gardenian, etc. Such as in the song "Embody The Invisible" by in flames, where he plays that cool solo in the middle of the song and the ending solo that's harmonized in minor thirds. (the first solo has the second guitar playing the octave of the first guitar part). Even Children of Bodom solos, I'm curious as to what kind of scales they use for the most part. It's kind of impossible to play them from tab, unless you know what scale it is and the positions he's covering because he plays it so inhumanly fast.

Thanks for any help.

 

[xenophobe]

I would say learn your modes. One you learn your modes, you'll know where you can take it, in kind of a sterile fashion... then you can apply bends, patterns and stuff...

Generally, you need to build them with a thought on how you'd like to come out...

Experiment.

Solos don't just "jump" from your fingertips, they, like a song, need to be created, many times going note per note...

At least for memorible ones.

I think there's a big difference between all out shredding/ripping from writing a tasteful solo designed for a specific peice of music..

There is a thread in this forum about scales... maybe you should read a little more into what I and the other guy were writing about...

 

[nihilist]

Although I am a technique nazi, I have to say that without emotion, solos are nothing. Take Santana, I don't personally find his solo's all that interesting (90% of it's natural minor or pentatonic), but you can tell that there is such emotion behind it and that's what makes it work. The biggest misconception in metal I think no matter what technical stuff you are playing is that speed = good solo. START SLOW, speed is only good if the notes are fluid and can be deciphered easily, which comes by practicing it slowly. Like xeno said, practice your scales and modes and that's really all there is technically to soloing... I also advocate string crossing exercisizes and sweep picking heavily, but that might be down the road a bit... good luck

Slainte!

 

[xenophobe]

I would have to add... sometimes something I come up with doens't fit into any specific musical pattern that I can associate with it.

Sometimes it may not be technically correct, but if you can get it to do what you want, then you're fine.

Pay attention to other's lead structure...

Where they hold off... where they flow, and how they can reach cresendo... bends, hammer ons, releases, pull offs, pinch harmonics, etc...

Try experimenting, and coming up with a progression of your own.

It's just as time consuming as writing a good song, it'll change and evolve, but once you can do it, practice it, and create another...

They don't have to be fast, or even modal. A solo can be three or four well placed slow notes... starting from a bend/release/bend... then a harmonic, and another tasteful natrual vibrato...

You can tremolo-pick blindingly fast through a scale at a slower pace...

Quite a few things you can do, but you really need to experiment.

Start off easy, and build from there.

 

[SADUDE]

I think the Dorian mode can be significant in metal. I would spend time there. Most celtic/medieval/folk music uses dorian ... and with metal crossing with such genres i believe dorian to be one of the more important. Dorian is just a natural minor or aeolian scale with the 6th degree raised a half step. There are different ways to learn the modes. I reccommend first learn them starting from the major scale(1st mode=ionian, 2nd mode=dorian, 3rd= phrygian and etc) Then after that learn them in relation to a major scale(i.e.
mixolydian is a major scale with a flat 7)
Some of the modes have more of a minor feel like dorian, phrygian and obviously aeolian. YOu could learn say dorian in relation to the major scale , which means you take a major scale and flat the 3rd and 7th, But in relation to aeolian you just raise the 6th. Learn how the modes are fromed in relation to each other and play them parallel(start from the same root for example C ionian and C aeolian) Listen to the difference in sound.
If I missed anything and I lost anyone just say something and i'll clear things up. The modes aren't as complicated as they may seem. A strong word of advise is to learn the major scale and triad and how other chords, triads, and scales relate to it.

 

[nihilist]

I fear this thread might turn out to be a way for the knowledgeable folk to vent their theoretical knowledge. I have been a victim of this too I admit. MY theoretical question/challenge for all the rest of you is to find a modern metal band using twelve-tone rows, if so I'd like to hear it (well not actually all the dissonance, I just want to see a band that's tried it). If you know of any let me know.


Jester, sorry if we kind of divebombed into modal theory. For now, I'd recommend to just learn the functions of triads and how scale degrees relate to them. So that when you hear a 5 chord you'll know to solo among the 2^, the 5^, the 7^ (^ = scale degree of key, not the chord). This will help writing flowing progressions, songwriting, and how to bridge choruses and verses.

Also I'd just like to say, how come no one in metal is using secondary dominance? Such an easy trick... yet no one does it, hmm.

 

[xenophobe]

Okay, I'm just starting to grasp what you guys are talking about...

Jester, just practice your three note per string modes, their placement, and work on your triads.

Start with your basics, and the rest falls into place, kinda like tetris, unless you get a good instructor.

And it all depends on what you have planned as your goals.... to just play some decent leads and how to improvise without screwing up horribly, or mastering theory.

If you're working for the latter, get some instruction. Nothing is more important than a solid foundation, which only someone who knows their theory and can teach can help lay down for you.

If you're only concerned with casual playing, start like I said, and try learning solos from your favorite songs... that helps too.

Set a goal and work to it... small steps bro.

Like I said earlier, look in to the thread on scales and try to pick up some of what was said. There was some good advice in there I think.

 

[JesterRace]

Thanks for all of the tips, don't worry about "divebombing" into modal theory, I do know a lot about it already (I took a music theory class) I just haven't learned to connect it to guitar as of yet. Someone said earlier about what scale tones to use over fifths, which is actually one of the questions I wanted to ask but didn't think of at the time. What I gathered from music theory was to play in the same major or relative minor key as the chord progression implies. Which, for example, in a major key would be the I, IV, V as a well known progression. This doesn't really explain the usage of scales over power chords, which don't have the third to imply major or minor tonality, or even some modified chords that omit the third so the chord doesn't come out sounding so muddy with distortion. i.e D7(no3). Or the ever popular (in heavy metal) minor thirds that omit the fifth.

Another tangent: What do you usually write first, the heavier low end power chord riff or the single note maybe harmonized melody above it? I find it easier to write the lower end first, then to build the melody above that to create the real melody of the song, to give it its unique flavor from just some palm muted power chords.
Actually here's a chorus from a song that I've written, maybe one of you guys can analyze it for me

Tune both guitars down 2 steps to (C)

Guitar One
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------4--------------------------------------------4--------------|
|--2------ 0-------2--- 5------ 3-------5-----2------ 0------ 2----5--------|
|--0-000-2-222----0-3-333-5-555-7-77-0-000-2-222----0-3-333--|
*** *** * *** *** ** *** *** * ***

Guitar Two
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------10---|
|--9--------9h11h12p11p9h12p11p9h12p11p9----9--11--12---------|
|---------9-----------------------------------------------9----------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Guitar One (continued)
|--------------------|
|--------------------|
|--------------------|
|--------------------|
|--7--------4-------|
|--5-555--2-00---|

Guitar Two (continued)
|------------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------------|
|-11-9-7-9~-----12-12-12-14-14-14-16~----|
|--------------------x---x---x--x---x---x---x-------|
|-------------------10-10-10-12-12-12-14~----|
|------------------------------------------------------|

Note: The way this is tabbed is screwy, I can't get it to look right in this forum, the second guitar part is played much faster then the first, so that the last octaved run is in sync with the end of the first guitar part.

 

[Crypticbass]

As a bass player, I've found that breaking away from listening to metal or rock in general has been very helpful. I've spent alot of time studying and transposing guys like John Pattittucci , Miles Davis etc.... has help me get away from just playing scale patterns and going back to standard modal soloing. I don't know if this helps anyone but I thought I would try to help.

 

[nihilist]

well here it goes... First of all I have to include a sigh (sigh) for being forced to use tab on the internet, I feel your pain. I wish there was a way to put standard notation on boards like these, oh well.

Analysis: Alright, so you're in C minor and your progression goes as follows 1-2-5-(-1 depending on whether that "0" in Guitar 1 is a passing tone or not)-3-4-5-1, depending on the meter which I'm pretty sure is in 4/4 right? Although it could be in 3/4 depending on where you break it and what notes you hold. The next part is a 1-2-5-3-4-2-1 which is good because it breaks up the melodious aspect of it so that it doesn't sound cyclical or blink 182ish. This progression is essentially bluesy and if played without distortion, would sound like a typical 1-4-5 with a minor elaboration. The E flats, which appear in the rhythm and the lead obviously make it minor and although I don't see any 6ths, the 7th that you hit in the last line of Guitar two ("7") makes it natural minor ("8" would make it harmonic minor). I can imagine exactly what it sounds like and bet it would be decent.

My suggestions would be that you explore a little more range in your lead, perhaps progress another octave up, or trill among more notes than the 1^, 2^, and 3^. The only grave error are those parrallel octaves at the end of guitar two, if you were at a music school you would fail the assignment just on that, heh. Parallel 5's and 8's are considered the worst errors in theory. I know they don't sound too bad in metal, but it gives it a very non-countrapuntal sound otherwise. But I like the idea you're going for by progressing them 4-5-6... deceptive cadences are lovely aren't they? Keep going, you're on the right track.

 

[nihilist]

oops, I meant the end of Guitar 2 was a 3-4-5 progression... see what happens if you do a 4-5-6 instead, I think you'll be presently surprised with how a deceptive cadence would sound there. On string 5, go 12-14-15 to stay in minor, but if it were me I'd go 12-14-16 which is a "picardy 6th" (haha) deceptive cadence and would help transtion nicely into a major verse. Yummy

 

[JesterRace]

Originally posted by nihilist
well here it goes... First of all I have to include a sigh (sigh) for being forced to use tab on the internet, I feel your pain. I wish there was a way to put standard notation on boards like these, oh well.

Analysis: Alright, so you're in C minor and your progression goes as follows 1-2-5-(-1 depending on whether that "0" in Guitar 1 is a passing tone or not)-3-4-5-1, depending on the meter which I'm pretty sure is in 4/4 right? Although it could be in 3/4 depending on where you break it and what notes you hold. The next part is a 1-2-5-3-4-2-1 which is good because it breaks up the melodious aspect of it so that it doesn't sound cyclical or blink 182ish. This progression is essentially bluesy and if played without distortion, would sound like a typical 1-4-5 with a minor elaboration. The E flats, which appear in the rhythm and the lead obviously make it minor and although I don't see any 6ths, the 7th that you hit in the last line of Guitar two ("7") makes it natural minor ("8" would make it harmonic minor). I can imagine exactly what it sounds like and bet it would be decent.

My suggestions would be that you explore a little more range in your lead, perhaps progress another octave up, or trill among more notes than the 1^, 2^, and 3^. The only grave error are those parrallel octaves at the end of guitar two, if you were at a music school you would fail the assignment just on that, heh. Parallel 5's and 8's are considered the worst errors in theory. I know they don't sound too bad in metal, but it gives it a very non-countrapuntal sound otherwise.

- I didn't even think of that until you brought it to my attention. I forgot exactly what it was called, chamber music writing or something, but I had a tough time with some of the rules

But I like the idea you're going for by progressing them 4-5-6... deceptive cadences are lovely aren't they? Keep going, you're on the right track.

Ya, I noticed you correct yourself in the next post, but yeah, I actually do use a lot of deceptive cadences in what I write. Not really while purposely thinking of theory, its just the way the notes seem to roll out. Music should give you the unexpected, otherwise it would get boring too quickly. Deceptive is V-vi I believe, or in this case v-VI because the song is in C minor. Thanks for the tips, and yeah, It's in 4/4

 

[JesterRace]

Originally posted by Crypticbass
As a bass player, I've found that breaking away from listening to metal or rock in general has been very helpful. I've spent alot of time studying and transposing guys like John Pattittucci , Miles Davis etc.... has help me get away from just playing scale patterns and going back to standard modal soloing. I don't know if this helps anyone but I thought I would try to help.

That makes sense, but I can't get myself to listen to a lot of this stuff, because I really just don't like it regardless of the talent involved I'll listen to some bluesy stuff to give me an idea, but not that far.

 

[SADUDE]

Originally posted by nihilist
oops, I meant the end of Guitar 2 was a 3-4-5 progression... see what happens if you do a 4-5-6 instead, I think you'll be presently surprised with how a deceptive cadence would sound there. On string 5, go 12-14-15 to stay in minor, but if it were me I'd go 12-14-16 which is a "picardy 6th" (haha) deceptive cadence and would help transtion nicely into a major verse. Yummy

interesting...
What is a "picardy 6th"?
I dont see how that would that be deceptive. By sharping the sixth wouldn't you be going into dorian territory? Hence making the diatonic chord for the 6th degree minor? But this is speculation since there isn't a third

 

[SADUDE]

Originally posted by nihilist
I'd just like to say, how come no one in metal is using secondary dominance? Such an easy trick... yet no one does it, hmm.

I studied secondary dominance a little bit, but I haven't thought about it in a while. Secondary dominance would mean Modulating to the Dominant or V of one Key and when playing the dominant chord in that key (which is actually the ii of the original key) You would be sharping the third making it a major or textbook dominant chord? Am I right? SO essentially your making the ii chord of one key a II chord (min to maj), by sharping the 4^ . Wouldn't that make the tonic key a lydian scale?

YES IM AWARE THAT THIS CAN GIVE HEADACHES lol.

 

[nihilist]

hey there,
A picardy 3rd is labeled when an entire song or phrase is obviously in minor and then on the very last note/triad the third is major (i-iv-v, i-ii-v-I). I put picardy 6th in quotes as a joke because I don't know if it can pertain to the 6th scale degree... the 6th at the deceptive cadence that I indicated would be a major sixth and hence be a picardy 6th. It doesn't mean it's going to dorian mode (or any other mode that contains a major 6th), it's moreso a key change tool.

Yep, you're right about how a dominant chord works. It's a dual function chord written as V/V "five of five" which is identical as a major II chord. Haha I can tell you're a guitarist, you think in terms of modes way too mode. Don't think of secondary dominance as a key change, let alone recentering a modal centre... think of a V/V as a passing tone/triad instead.

 

[SADUDE]

YEa i think of everything too much. I tend to over analyze. I always like to think of the chord and the scale. Im going to ask my bass instructor tomorrow if the picardy third thing would also be applied to the sixth. Although you calling it picardy would be implied by a lot of logic.
Wouldn't you be implying that you be making the iv chord a IV chord? If you were talking about the 4 chord how would that be a deceptive cadence ? wouldn't ending on the 3 chord in minor be deceptive since the 6 chord in major is?
I think I may be missing something.
Im still using that other guy who posted's song as an example.


Rel major/minor being one type of modulation.... What are other common key changes?

 

[SADUDE]

Acctually i have a new question. Does a minor key function the same way as a major one in terms of chord progression.
For example if you go to the sixth chord in a major key it is the rel min. But the third chord of a minor is the rel major. So do the chord progressions in terms of roman numerals function similar? like i know the V is the dominant in both a major or minor but in the minor you have to sharp the third. you see where im goin with this right? For exampe does the common
I IV ii V work the same in minor. It would be i iv ii hald dim, V but would have the same sort of tension release feel?

 

[HarmonyDies....]

I am hungry.