Transgender

[forbidden fruit]

Oh, you mean drama, who in their right mind would deny that drama is not the norm today

Sorry man, I don't get what you mean...

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

TLDR Version: What's your opinion on trannys?

Let them pursue their affairs, and frankly I nor any other has such business involving nor getting involved. If they want to wear dresses or what-ever in public, let them do so, but for them to expect others not to look at the them funny is absurd, and it is the right of business-owners to ask them to vacate on such an account by virtue of their property rights over their respective establishments.

 

[waif]

On the last count, I disagree. Is it okay to refuse to serve someone because they're gay? How about because they're black? Principal-wise, it's all or nothing; you either don't allow discrimination in public places or you do. A business is a public place. They are not allowed to ask a black person to leave because they're black, so why should they be allowed to ask a tranny to leave?

 

[BlackMetalWhiteGuy]

Cuba has just approved sex change operations, which will be provided for free under the country's health care plan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25009830/wid/11915773?GT1=31037

Cuba approves sex change operations
Country's health care system will offer procedures free of charge

HAVANA - Cuba, in the latest change since President Raul Castro took office in February, has allowed doctors to perform sex change operations, a specialist at the National Center for Sex Education said on Friday.

Center director Mariela Castro, the president's daughter, has pushed for the operations and said that at least 28 people in the country of 11 million want the surgery.

The specialist, who asked not to be named, said the Public Health Ministry approved the surgery this week. Cuba's health care system will perform it free of charge.

A sex change operation took place in Cuba in 1988. But there was so much opposition to it that the health ministry canceled the program, Mariela Castro said last month.

She said Cuban doctors were training with Belgian surgeons to prepare for the operations. It was not known when they would begin.

Since succeeding his brother Fidel Castro as president, Raul Castro has opened up a national debate on issues facing Cuba and taken steps to modernize the state-run economy.

Cubans can now buy computers, DVD players and mobile phones. But few people can afford them.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

On the last count, I disagree. Is it okay to refuse to serve someone because they're gay? How about because they're black? Principal-wise, it's all or nothing; you either don't allow discrimination in public places or you do. A business is a public place. They are not allowed to ask a black person to leave because they're black, so why should they be allowed to ask a tranny to leave?

I would submit that on account of their right to property, they should be able to ask a black person to leave, though it would result in bad publicity in that specific case and the loss of business from black clientèle and other outraged parties would cause them to think otherwise. If, however, one is causing a disturbance or causing a distraction (vis-a-vis requiring formal attire at a fancy restaurant), then that is another matter altogether. Bottom line: the choice should still rest with the property owners. Public places are one thing, but the sanctity of the right to property is the hall-mark of civilization.

 

[waif]

Private property, that is. If you run a shop then it's public.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

It may be in public in terms of an expectation of privacy, but it is still private in that the store-owner, shopping centre, or corporation holds title to such property. Their property, their policies. For example, at a nightclub, one may be asked to wait in line to be let in, and even then one may be refused entry.

 

[razoredge]

Well I dont know about restorant or store or whatever but as far as employment I feel they have the right, but NOT based on race. If an employer does not want a freak show or spiked hair or rings all over the face that is their right.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

Let the free market, not the state dictate who refuses whom.

 

[Möglich]

The free market supports the cheap and effective institution of slavery. That idea fails.

 

[waif]

It may be in public in terms of an expectation of privacy, but it is still private in that the store-owner, shopping centre, or corporation holds title to such property. Their property, their policies. For example, at a nightclub, one may be asked to wait in line to be let in, and even then one may be refused entry.

If it is a business it is a public entity and thus the government is entitled to create legislation determining the grounds on which entry may be denied.

Let the free market, not the state dictate who refuses whom.

The free market supports the cheap and effective institution of slavery. That idea fails.

Pretty much. Laissez-faire did not result in the best for everyone.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

That would be an issue if a business was a public entity. They are not.

As for slavery, there was a non-lazziez-faire element to it, as the Constitution itself provided for the return of run-away slaves (i.e. Fugitive Slave Law of 1793). However, the notion of slavery as a whole is an anathema to liberty and the prevention thereof is one of the handful of justifications to the existence of the state.

As a side note: on average, for 4 months out of the year, the whole country is made to work for the profit of the state. That is slavery (or at least serfdom) if I ever heard of such a thing.

 

[razoredge]

the slavery issue contains a certain amount of amusment, not that I support it. Slavery was old as mankind, even the Native Americans took defeated tribe members into slavery, yet everyone acts like only the blacks in America were slaves. Yet we worship or amaze at ancient ruins that were constructed by slave labor.

Yes there are many forms of slavery, the capitolist labor market a prime example. Then of course there is the decades of tax dollars enslaving working America to support welfare for the kin of former slaves and the funds available were increased or rewarded by promoting having more children, bureaucratic brilliance at its finest.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

Better they work at a wage set by supply and demand than starve, though the latter would wring excess supply out of the system.

 

[Möglich]

the slavery issue contains a certain amount of amusment, not that I support it. Slavery was old as mankind, even the Native Americans took defeated tribe members into slavery, yet everyone acts like only the blacks in America were slaves. Yet we worship or amaze at ancient ruins that were constructed by slave labor.

Notice that my post-- The one that brought slavery into the discussion, throws only a positive light on the subject. Cheap and effective.

The point is that the free market, when left to its own devices, comes up with certain solutions that are considered by many to be immoral. It is likely in the state's best interest (remember that the heart and soul of a free market is to do the most profitable action) to keep face by doing the more "moral" thing. If we, for example, allowed slavery to exist for the profit of the market, there would ultimately be a negative effect due to trade restrictions resulting from foreign outrage. The net loss argues for state intervention.

On this same train of thought, we can perceive hidden investments in promoting liberties for the minority. It could, perhaps, be a wise and profitable (not necessarily profit measured by tangible currency) decision to establish and maintain the reputation of a state consistently setting precedent in areas like civil liberty.

 

[Charvelguy]

the slavery issue contains a certain amount of amusment, not that I support it. Slavery was old as mankind, even the Native Americans took defeated tribe members into slavery, yet everyone acts like only the blacks in America were slaves. Yet we worship or amaze at ancient ruins that were constructed by slave labor.

Yes there are many forms of slavery, the capitolist labor market a prime example. Then of course there is the decades of tax dollars enslaving working America to support welfare for the kin of former slaves and the funds available were increased or rewarded by promoting having more children, bureaucratic brilliance at its finest.

A tad off topic but I am gonna jump into this fray a bit.

Slavery amoung blacks was actually exploited much in the same reference that you make for Native Americans. Waring tribes often sold off or enslaved the losing captives of their fueds and this is really how the African slave trade began before Caucasions entered into the factor to exploit it.

Now I view illegal aliens almost as a form of new slave labor..altho the majority do not mind being exploited if they are treated reasonably fair by American labor standard and making a good life for a reasonably fair days American wage..its often 10times higher than what they would make for a days wage in Mexico. Yet, if they have the voice to complain, they often feel they are being underpaid in comparison to American counterparts...which is not always the case, there is plenty of skilled underpaid legal American workers as well.
Regardless of where you came from or your legal status, you're often asked of and worked pretty well for your money.

 

[OldScratch]

On this same train of thought, we can perceive hidden investments in promoting liberties for the minority. It could, perhaps, be a wise and profitable (not necessarily profit measured by tangible currency) decision to establish and maintain the reputation of a state consistently setting precedent in areas like civil liberty.

It's a collective profit-center unto itself and quite measurable in currency! The whole of the "Diversity/Civil Liberties/Tolerance/Equality/Social Justice" or similar industries - and make no mistake they ARE industries - have been and remain extremely lucrative. This greater egalitarian scheme has been wholly industrialized, employing legions in the public and private sectors, and making a cash-cow business of "equality."

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

It's a collective profit-center unto itself and quite measurable in currency! The whole of the "Diversity/Civil Liberties/Tolerance/Equality/Social Justice" or similar industries - and make no mistake they ARE industries - have been and remain extremely lucrative. This greater egalitarian scheme has been wholly industrialized, employing legions in the public and private sectors, and making a cash-cow business of "equality."

This aversely impacts the market not only in terms of the cost borne by the private sector, but also that this nonsense impacts smaller companies as a greater % of earnings, aversely impacting the marginal cost of their good or service vis-a-vis their competitor. The increased overall costs and the reduced competition on account of the disproportionate unit costs levied upon smaller players all couples to a 'hidden tax' in increased cost to the consumer, though at least the latter is kept within the private sector. Deregulation would be a win-win as it would not only lower unit costs, but it would ensure more players in the market place to keep them low via competition though the free market.

As for the enslavement of the capitalist system, there is no such slavery. The operative word in 'free market' is 'free'; just because one does not like the wages does not allow one to say that a system enslaves one's self. However, being compelled to surrender 1/3 of one's income so that overpaid bureaucrats may wallow in largesse, last I checked, would, though I outsmarted them and pay Dubai rates i.e. none.

Yes there are many forms of slavery, the capitolist labor market a prime example. Then of course there is the decades of tax dollars enslaving working America to support welfare for the kin of former slaves and the funds available were increased or rewarded by promoting having more children, bureaucratic brilliance at its finest.

Did you mean: capitalist

capitol = nation's capitol
capital = starting capital (for a business)
I haven't made that orthographical error since middle school

 

[razoredge]

good for you asshole, I've been out of school for 30 years and just type disregarding many we wittle things as I go... BFD

Nipick at typos like a wittle baby... how impressive

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

It was somewhat amusing in its consistency, so I decided to poke fun at it. Likewise consistent but not so amusing is to make blanket general statements without being willing to back them up.

In 30 years, I hope they still make Jaguars...