Trigger impedance & preamps

[streetwise]

So I guess everyone here is running their ddrum etc. triggers straight to a mic preamp, line in or the Hi-Z input? But the piezoelectric pickup is a very high impedance source, especially for low frequencies, because it's essentially like a capacitor. The capacitive source impedance forms a high pass voltage divider with the low input impedance and all the low frequencies are lost. Frequency response is probably very distorted at resonance & anti resonance too.

Of course the 'sound' of the trigger doesn't matter much, but I'm wondering if the pickup would still benefit (better trigger response?) of running it to a correct impedance (3 - 10 M ohm).

To be honest, I've never even tried running my Ddrum Pros to a Hi-Z input ( = 1M ohm) if it makes a practical difference compared to a low impedance mic preamp. Using the Hi-Z input most likely needs a lot of attenuation? I've only used mic preamps because the triggers have XLR-connectors and it gets the job done that way.

Maybe I'll build a phantom-powered on-board FET-buffer with a pad and see for my self if it makes a difference =)

Opinions?

 

[006]

Just use them into a preamp like a mic. It's supposed to be lacking all the low end, that helps to make it more accurate for triggering, sort of the point. What kind of a difference are you trying to achieve, exactly?

 

[nezvers]

I don't have drums to trigger, but maybe he want to try trigger blending into mix?

 

[streetwise]

Just use them into a preamp like a mic. It's supposed to be lacking all the low end, that helps to make it more accurate for triggering, sort of the point. What kind of a difference are you trying to achieve, exactly?

I can EQ it in the DAW if I want but I can't make the distorted response flat again if there's a huge impedance mismatch. Just a thought if correct impedance bridging would make triggering more accurate. High impedance sources require even higher impedance loads to transfer the voltage correctly. You're not recording your guitars straight to the mic pre either, are you? The piezo trigger has an impedance a lot higher than a guitar pickup. The sound of the trigger doesn't matter that much, but it's still the "wrong" way to do it, looking from an electronics engineers point of view

 

[streetwise]

I don't have drums to trigger, but maybe he want to try trigger blending into mix?

No. I'm asking this because I'm using apTrigga to trigger drums and it's quite bad. A J201 JFET + a few resistors for each trigger is a lot cheaper than buying better software

 

[006]

I can EQ it in the DAW if I want but I can't make the distorted response flat again if there's a huge impedance mismatch. Just a thought if correct impedance bridging would make triggering more accurate. High impedance sources require even higher impedance loads to transfer the voltage correctly. You're not recording your guitars straight to the mic pre either, are you? The piezo trigger has an impedance a lot higher than a guitar pickup. The sound of the trigger doesn't matter that much, but it's still the "wrong" way to do it, looking from an electronics engineers point of view

What do you mean make it more accurate? What exactly is inaccurate? The sound of the trigger? Who cares? It's going to be replaced anyway...

The technical aspects of a drum trigger being plugged into a mic pre may be "wrong," but it's awfully funny everyone gets along with how they are and plugged into a mic pre for so many years since their inception... I really don't understand what the problem is that you are having.

And I record guitar/bass DI's into a... DI. *shocker*

 

[streetwise]

What do you mean make it more accurate? What exactly is inaccurate? The sound of the trigger? Who cares? It's going to be replaced anyway... and, again, piezo elements are used specifically because of the lack of low end, it makes for a favorable source to trigger from... accurately. The same reason why if you put something like Slate's TRIGGER on a mic'ed drum track for replacement, you would filter out low end before it so that it's not having to deal with rumbling and extra resonances, i.e. making the signal more accurate for triggering.

The technical aspects of a drum trigger may be "wrong," but even still it's awfully funny everyone gets along with how they are and into a mic pre for so many years since their inception... I really don't understand what the problem is that you are having.

And I record guitar/bass DI's into a... DI. *shocker*

Sorry, I did not intend to hurt your feelings by questioning the reason to run triggers into wrong loads. The thing is, the impedance mismatch will most likely affect mid and high frequencies, especially at resonance and antiresonance as said. I think the resonant frequency is somewhere around 5kHz.

I've personally only used mic preamps to record triggers, but I'm interested if it will make a difference.

 

[egan.]

I think what you are saying makes a difference in theory but in practice it just doesn't matter. That said, there is no sense in having a hypothetical debate on it though-- if you're really curious test it, see if it makes a difference and post your results.

 

[streetwise]

I think what you are saying makes a difference in theory but in practice it just doesn't matter. That said, there is no sense in having a hypothetical debate on it though-- if you're really curious test it, see if it makes a difference and post your results.

I'm curious if anyone has compared a Hi-Z input (with proper attenuation) and a mic pre and noticed any difference? I'll probably build the buffer this week or next week after I'm done recording this album I'm working on.

 

[KHE]

i try to do a short test this evening with my roland snare trigger (RT-10S) and my focusrite saffire 24 (mic, line and hi-z 1MOhm) 'cause i was curious about this as well some time ago, but i forgot to further investigate it.

 

[KHE]

here are the results: https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7349298_4403672_117618

not much difference between Line-In and Hi-Z, but into the mic-pre the trigger-signal gets more hi-end. can't explain why, in theory there should be less hi-end because of the lower input-impedance...?

but anyway, all three inputs will work perfectly fine, none of them will affect the triggerd response in a bad way i guess.

cheers!

 

[streetwise]

here are the results: https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7349298_4403672_117618

not much difference between Line-In and Hi-Z, but into the mic-pre the trigger-signal gets more hi-end. can't explain why, in theory there should be less hi-end because of the lower input-impedance...?

but anyway, all three inputs will work perfectly fine, none of them will affect the triggerd response in a bad way i guess.

cheers!

No, a piezo won't lose it's high end because it's a "capacitor", and the impedance is high for low frequencies and low for high frequencies. It's pretty much the opposite of a guitar pickup. You're probably losing the low end and compensating with more preamp gain and the result sounds brighter. The mic preamp has the lowest input impedance of the three (roughly 1k, 10k and 1M.)

Maybe I'll try with an ultra high impedance buffer just for fun if it makes a difference. I think probably not.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

You are not using a trigger as a mic. It is supposed to act as an isolated signal of the transient of the drum or "barrier" that it is connected to. The transient is not to have low end because it helps with the accuracy of of the trigger program being used. If you are using programs like Slate Trigger or APtrigga, you want to 100% sample replace the sound of the trigger itself.

You are looking into things too much, which is being exacerbated by a limited knowledge of Electrical Engineering and speculation.

 

[streetwise]

You are looking into things too much

This is ridiculous. Oh, whatever...

limited knowledge of Electrical Engineering

Yes, I admit I've only been repairing guitar amps for a few years, studied electronics for a year at the uni and I'm starting my studies in electronics at the university of applied science, but you could still correct me where I'm wrong.

 

[Trevoire520]

No one is saying you're "wrong" we're just saying that it doesn't matter.

 

[006]

Sorry, I did not intend to hurt your feelings by questioning the reason to run triggers into wrong loads.

Lol... how did you get the idea my feelings were hurt from what I posted?

No one is saying you're "wrong" we're just saying that it doesn't matter.

BINGO. Don't act like we are the ones being unreasonable, it's just you that seems certain it's being done wrong... I hope to hear some comparisons after you are done wasting your time with that "ultra high impedance buffer," though. Onward to your quest for revolutionizing drum triggers, or whatever.

 

[streetwise]

Lol... how did you get the idea my feelings were hurt from what I posted?

Because of your weird attitude against trying to improve something that everyone has always done the same way probably without thinking about it. Well, at least I have. I'm sorry if I got you wrong.

BINGO. Don't act like we are the ones being unreasonable, it's just you that seems certain it's being done wrong... I hope to hear some comparisons after you are done wasting your time with that "ultra high impedance buffer," though. Onward to your quest for revolutionizing drum triggers, or whatever.

As I said, I've always recorded triggers through mic preamps, the question was if the trigger response (or signal to noise ratio) would be better if you wouldn't load the piezo and distort the frequency response that way. It's 'wrong', considering that you'll probably want to transfer a voltage signal like with a guitar. That's why you're using a DI-box to bridge the high impedance of the guitar to a low input impedance of a mic preamp. To transfer a voltage signal you'll want to use an input impedance ten times higher than the source impedance. Loading the guitar (by running it straight into a mic preamp) will make it sound dull as you already know.

It's probably not a big deal with triggers, but at least it's not going to cost me anything but waste of time to bread board it. I was asking if anyone has tried this so I wouldn't waste my time on it if it was already proved not to make any difference. And now you guys are saying I shouldn't even look into it and getting all personal on me, telling me about my lack of knowledge in electronics and stuff.

So if you still didn't get the point: I'm wondering if running the triggers into a low impedance load will lose some crucial information of the signal and make the triggering more inaccurate. After recording the triggers with a flat frequency response you can always highpass the track, but loading the piezo can make the frequency response quite weird, because even though I said the piezo basicly acts like a capacitive source, it does have some inductance (due to it's mass I guess) and probably some resistance too.

http://www.efunda.com/materials/piezo/electronics/piezo_impedance.gif

I live in a world of shitty drummers and sometimes there's just too much manual work riding the trigger threshold to pickup every hit. I though this could be an easy way to improve the situation somewhat. I hate iLok and antipiratism (too much extra trouble when I'm buying the product anyway, even if it's easy to download from a torrent site) and I'm not buying Slate Trigger because of that. I guess it might solve the problem though, lol.

 

[Trevoire520]

Personally I've never had any issues with signal to noise ratio in trigger tracks, they tend to be coming into the mic amp very hot with little to zero bleed. Never found it a problem to trigger accurately either, though obviously triggering from mic'd tracks can be a major hassle especially if the drummer isn't great.

Also I've never found sticking an ilok into the side of my laptop to be any "extra trouble" especially when compared to messing with serial numbers and authorization codes, or challenge/response type systems. These companies are using ilok because they have to somehow protect their software so that their staff can earn money and put food on the table.

 

[006]

Because of your weird attitude against trying to improve something that everyone has always done the same way probably without thinking about it. Well, at least I have. I'm sorry if I got you wrong.

Hmm. Well, you are the one coming out of left field about an issue nobody has ever had with drum triggers. But, sure, I am the weird one.

As I said, I've always recorded triggers through mic preamps, the question was if the trigger response (or signal to noise ratio) would be better if you wouldn't load the piezo and distort the frequency response that way. It's 'wrong', considering that you'll probably want to transfer a voltage signal like with a guitar. That's why you're using a DI-box to bridge the high impedance of the guitar to a low input impedance of a mic preamp. To transfer a voltage signal you'll want to use an input impedance ten times higher than the source impedance. Loading the guitar (by running it straight into a mic preamp) will make it sound dull as you already know.

It's probably not a big deal with triggers, but at least it's not going to cost me anything but waste of time to bread board it. I was asking if anyone has tried this so I wouldn't waste my time on it if it was already proved not to make any difference. And now you guys are saying I shouldn't even look into it and getting all personal on me, telling me about my lack of knowledge in electronics and stuff.

So if you still didn't get the point: I'm wondering if running the triggers into a low impedance load will lose some crucial information of the signal and make the triggering more inaccurate. After recording the triggers with a flat frequency response you can always highpass the track, but loading the piezo can make the frequency response quite weird, because even though I said the piezo basicly acts like a capacitive source, it does have some inductance (due to it's mass I guess) and probably some resistance too.

http://www.efunda.com/materials/piezo/electronics/piezo_impedance.gif

The thing I don't understand is what problem you are having with triggers. I understand your theory and ideas perfectly fine, I just think they will lead to no improvement in performance. Nobody said, not even once, to not do it or to not try it. And I never said anything about your knowledge of electronics, you know more than I do judging from your posts. Either that or you are just talking out of your ass, but I don't know because I'm not knowledgeable on electronics beyond the basics.

I've never heard of, nor had personal experience of, there being an unfavorable signal-to-noise ratio with triggers. I'm sure 99.999% of other drum trigger users will say the same thing. So, again, I am back to not understanding what the problem is that you are having with triggers.

I live in a world of shitty drummers and sometimes there's just too much manual work riding the trigger threshold to pickup every hit. I though this could be an easy way to improve the situation somewhat.

I hate iLok and antipiratism (too much extra trouble when I'm buying the product anyway, even if it's easy to download from a torrent site) and I'm not buying Slate Trigger because of that. I guess it might solve the problem though, lol.

I've recorded tons upon tons of drummers in my time so far, good and bad ones... never had to ride the threshold in any replacement plug-in to get the results I needed.

Trigger is the best of the bunch as far as what all I have used, common consensus among other Trigger users as well. I own apTrigga and used to own Drumagog, haven't looked back since getting Trigger ages ago. I can guarantee that you will have better results using Trigger than you do now with apTrigga. I would even bet that if you got Trigger you would stop having whatever issue it is that you are having.

There is nothing wrong with iLok. In fact, it's a hell of a lot easier than the alternative anti-piracy methods (challenge/response, license files, website activation...). Install plug-in(s), plug iLok into USB port, ready to go. Don't even try to argue that alternative methods are just as easy. Usually the case, at least through the subject coming up many times on this forum, is the people that have an aversion to iLok are the ones that have never used it. I'm going to guess you have never had one, or at least no personal experience to call upon for your opinion on them, correct?

 

[TheWinterSnow]

One thing the OP is seemingly not aware of is that peizo pickups are not resonant at low frequencies, PERIOD. It does not matter how well the piezo is loaded, it will never produce low frequency voltages. The lowest resonant frequency of a piezo is dependent on its mass. A small piezo will never produce a strong voltage at low frequencies, even when it is unloaded. That is just how they work.

If you are having triggering issues perhaps look at your tracking levels and learn to use your sample replacement program correctly. If all else fails, get Slate Trigger. If that still doesn't work, its not the trigger, its not the software, its user error.