Venting

[Nico]

I fear I have taken the argumentative approach that polarises believers from non-believers. I would NEVER suggest that science is farce in the face of God. I would agree that religion is farce in the face of facts, but that's pretty obvious anyway. It's not as simple as God vs. Science, fer chrissakes!

that's true. but we can use those devices (well hewn over many years, i might add) and begin to deduce what is real and what is not.

Sure. Yes. Absolutely. No problem.

okay, but what does this have to do with an irrational belief in god? to me, it sounds like an excuse to not use your god given logic to try to figure out what life is all about.

which, btw, a belief based in logic is much more PROBABLE than a belief in god, which has little evidence compared to an (admittedly fallible) "objective" view of the world.

All I'm actually saying here is that, while logic and reason are fine and lovely, they're not actually as absolute as we often mistake them to be.

of course! we developed our senses to SEE the world around us so we don't become consumed by it (you know, like a hurricane destroying us or getting eaten by a woolly mammoth). and to have a belief in something far beyond our mind is dismiss any shred of evidence that we DO have and not put any pieces together.

can we take a guess where the belief in a deity came from? anyone? bueller?

I'm not dismissing the evidence here! I'm not trying to claim that the world is flat, or that you'll go to hell if you support abortion or contraceptives or premarital sex! I'm attempting to have you grasp the enormity of the inconceivable, albiet my language is not as concise as it should be, and I can see you misunderstanding me.

i'm sorry, but this is a cop-out.

Absolutely fucking not.

 

[Furious B]

Let me just make sure I understand you - to believe in God means to believe that we are alone in this universe both in our existence and our capacity to believe in Him?

in the universe, absolutely not. to believe that we are the only creatures in existence (outside of those that exist on this planet) would be straight up ignorant. and perhaps other life forms have developed a belief in a higher power. it's very likely.

however, in our solar system, which is from my understanding somewhat of an anomoly in respective of it's placement and properties in the galactic collective, we are the only creatures that can even comprehend god's existence.

would you not agree with that?

if that is the case, does it not stand to reason that because we ARE such an anomoly, god's creation of such an oddball solar system and seemingly random placement would be COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to our understanding its existence (presuming it is completely aware that we have only our own senses to base our beliefs on)?

Tests result in data. That's really all there is to it.

yes and no.

you're absolutely right that tests result in data.

however, all the compound data from those thousands and thousands of tests generally point to a very specific conclusion (which again become edited and modified as time goes on and new discoveries are made). these conclusions that all this data points to is where any rational person would draw their beliefs. of course this all depends on fairly consistent results.

are they completely infallible? no, but they are VERY probable.

If a test you devised could observe the existence of God, it would simultaneously DISPROVE Him.

elaborate on this. i'm not sure i completely understand you.

 

[Furious B]

All I'm actually saying here is that, while logic and reason are fine and lovely, they're not actually as absolute as we often mistake them to be.

and i agree with that. the thing is though, if we don't make a certain decision on what is reality and what is not, we have no basis for how we live our lives here on earth.

so where do we draw our beliefs from? science or religion?

my argument is that basing our belief systems off science is the smarter and much more rational thing to do.

I'm attempting to have you grasp the enormity of the inconceivable

of course there are things that we can't conceive of. yet.

there were many things that were inconceivable that now are completely conceivable.

and the gap of knowledge and ignorance is becoming less and less every day.

Absolutely fucking not.

the truth is, i don't even disagree with what you're saying.

you're absolutely right that our perceptions are flawed. there are so many things beyond my scope of understanding and expertise. like the mechanics of quantum physics, thorough understanding of string theory, choas theory/the butterfly effect, etc.

but we as humans have a collective of information. we build off prior knowledge to lead to new conclusions that are very sound. we have men that dedicate their entire lives in one subject to give us a small amount of information on that very specific subject. and those little tiny bits of information that so many men and women have put time into have allowed for us to see reality just a little bit clearer.

and it compounds and grows. and we become closer knowing who we truly are.

 

[Dark One]

It's funny how people can be so certain on one side of the fence or the other in this neverending debate and yet if we are so evolved as to believe we can understand the nature or lack thereof of some type of higher power or deity in the universe, then why can't we find the definitive cure for cancer, AIDS, etc, or take a pill that stops anyone from being overweight, or find a way to live hundreds of years, or even travel outside our tiny little solar system????

We can profess to understand the existence or lack thereof of a "god" yet can't get past petty racial differences, poverty, pollution, crime, drugs and on and on and on. Regardless of what the answer actually is (and I have absolutely no idea, nor would I profess to), we are not capable at this point of our existence of understanding it. I respect everyone's opinion, but subscribe to none of them. Every religion is false, every scientific explanation is false (even if the truth is miraculously somewhere in there).

Jason

 

[Furious B]

It's funny how people can be so certain on one side of the fence or the other in this neverending debate and yet if we are so evolved as to believe we can understand the nature or lack thereof of some type of higher power or deity in the universe, then why can't we find the definitive cure for cancer, AIDS, etc, or take a pill that stops anyone from being overweight, or find a way to live hundreds of years, or even travel outside our tiny little solar system????

i do believe a lot of it is merely a lack of funding and a simple conflict of interest.

i can assure you we would get a lot more done if we consolidated fiscally towards things that actually helped our race like space exploration and modern medicine.

moreover, there are people that simply think that those things are BAD or IMMORAL. a whole lot of them to boot. so it makes the whole situation much more complicated and sticky.

and we tend to like to put our money and time towards things like booze and sex. and when i say we, mean society as a whole. including myself.

We can profess to understand the existence or lack thereof of a "god" yet can't get past petty racial differences

i think this one would be better directed towards Reign in Acai.

Jerry?

 

[Furious B]

i do believe in this.

mmm

 

[Reign in Acai]

It's funny how people can be so certain on one side of the fence or the other in this neverending debate and yet if we are so evolved as to believe we can understand the nature or lack thereof of some type of higher power or deity in the universe, then why can't we find the definitive cure for cancer, AIDS, etc, or take a pill that stops anyone from being overweight, or find a way to live hundreds of years, or even travel outside our tiny little solar system????

We can profess to understand the existence or lack thereof of a "god" yet can't get past petty racial differences, poverty, pollution, crime, drugs and on and on and on. Regardless of what the answer actually is (and I have absolutely no idea, nor would I profess to), we are not capable at this point of our existence of understanding it. I respect everyone's opinion, but subscribe to none of them. Every religion is false, every scientific explanation is false (even if the truth is miraculously somewhere in there).

Jason

Preach the Gospel Reverend Jason.

 

[Reign in Acai]

i think this one would be better directed towards Reign in Acai.

Jerry?

I don't judge any man but by his character only. I'm chummy with several African Americans at work, and have a multitude of friends who are Asian, Hispanic, White, Atheist, Christian, and Mongoloid. If you're a cool cat you can run with me. That being said, I'm not going to refrain from using racial slurs when the appropriate moments arise. Political correctness is for cunts.

 

[Dark One]

i do believe a lot of it is merely a lack of funding and a simple conflict of interest.

i can assure you we would get a lot more done if we consolidated fiscally towards things that actually helped our race like space exploration and modern medicine.

While I don't doubt that the "immediate gratification" and "lazy" qualities of most of humanity hinders our progress in these areas, I do not believe whatsoever that acknowledging this means that at least some of us are capable of understanding the nature of the universe. Those of us who have such an understanding, should easily be able to tackle any of the petty issues I referenced. Sorry, I don't buy someone being able to definitively say a "deity" doesn't exist, without having an understanding of the billions of other smaller issues that the world doesn't have an answer for.

and we tend to like to put our money and time towards things like booze and sex. and when i say we, mean society as a whole. including myself.

No argument that these types of things are worldwide "immediate gratifcation" items that permeate our day to day lives and hinder our ability to move forward. But it's also proof at just how "unevolved" we truly are to be able to think that we can understand the scientific or any other "paintbrush" forces behind the infinitely vast canvas that is the universe.

In the meantime, I'll listen to my Immortal cd's and continue to prepare for my trip to Wacken.

Jason

 

[skeptik]

I don't buy someone being able to definitively say a "deity" doesn't exist, without having an understanding of the billions of other smaller issues that the world doesn't have an answer for.

Well here's your problem, nobody in their right mind would say this. It is IMPOSSIBLE to definitively say that anything does not exist, from an omniscient deity to, of course, the spaghetti monster. This is not the argument. Nobody is arguing that there is definitively no possible chance of there being some type of higher being because this would require knowledge unobtainable by...well, anything. What the atheist argues is that it is so absurdly unlikely that there is some type of "creator" and there is so much evidence working against it that it's really not even worth seriously entertaining without any valid reason to do so. So the argument that because I don't know how to cure AIDS I can't possibly know that there is no god is a strawman.

 

[MajestikMøøse]

*looks at thread*



*sigh...*

 

[Dark One]

Nobody is arguing that there is definitively no possible chance of there being some type of higher being because this would require knowledge unobtainable by...well, anything.

Oh, you'd be surprised.

What the atheist argues is that it is so absurdly unlikely that there is some type of "creator" and there is so much evidence working against it that it's really not even worth seriously entertaining without any valid reason to do so.

Not 100% fact. Which is exactly why I tune these arguments as well as those of religious zealots right out.

So the argument that because I don't know how to cure AIDS I can't possibly know that there is no god is a strawman.

Nah, it's just commentary, a point of view. I don't *believe* you can not understand how to cure AIDS yet profess to understand the nature of the universe. That's all. It's a generalization, but because I *believe* it, does not make it so. Maybe it is possible to understand the nature of the universe but not understand how to cure AIDS. I just find that concept as silly as atheists laughing at the absurdity of (Christian/Muslim/Jewish/insert man made religion here) dogma.

Jason

 

[Furious B]

I don't judge any man but by his character only. I'm chummy with several African Americans at work, and have a multitude of friends who are Asian, Hispanic, White, Atheist, Christian, and Mongoloid. If you're a cool cat you can run with me. That being said, I'm not going to refrain from using racial slurs when the appropriate moments arise. Political correctness is for cunts.

i was just giving you shit. i enjoy the ol' ria rants.

 

[Furious B]

In the meantime, I'll listen to my Immortal cd's and continue to prepare for my trip to Wacken.

 

[Furious B]

Well here's your problem, nobody in their right mind would say this. It is IMPOSSIBLE to definitively say that anything does not exist, from an omniscient deity to, of course, the spaghetti monster. This is not the argument. Nobody is arguing that there is definitively no possible chance of there being some type of higher being because this would require knowledge unobtainable by...well, anything. What the atheist argues is that it is so absurdly unlikely that there is some type of "creator" and there is so much evidence working against it that it's really not even worth seriously entertaining without any valid reason to do so. So the argument that because I don't know how to cure AIDS I can't possibly know that there is no god is a strawman.

very well put.

 

[Furious B]

*looks at thread*



*sigh...*

and your next action:

up up up and *LEAVE*

 

[MajestikMøøse]

Jawhol, Herr Kommandant.

 

[skeptik]

Nothing is 100% fact. Do you tune out the entirety of existence as well?

And yes, your argument is still a strawman, at least for the general populous, because any asshole that suggests to definitively "understand the nature of the universe" is not supporting scientific theory and is out on his own little island with people like me, dorian, swizzlenuts, and Furious B pointing and laughing at his stupid ass. There's no way to legitimately "understand the nature of the universe," whereas curing AIDS is more likely just a matter of time. So after we cure AIDS, am I allowed to believe that it's more likely than not that there is no deity watching over me?

Basically what I'm saying is that if anyone tells you that he understands the universe, he's an idiot, full of shit, doesn't know what he's talking about, and doesn't at all represent the type of people you're dealing with in this thread.

 

[Furious B]

Jawhol, Herr Kommandant.

are you done yet?

 

[MajestikMøøse]

not quite yet.