Volume out of phones ~100db (actual), vocal track 20dbfs louder than anything else...

[Zozobra]

...Vocalist says they cant hear themselves in phones.

Light rock/blues rock, nothing really dense at all about the mix.

Vocalist crazy or legit complaint?

Other things:

Vocals out of tune. Experienced singer, known to be capable of good pitch. My explanation - massive volume from cans distorting perception of pitch. Off pitch parts tend to be sharp, and the effect in question tends to lead you pitch sharp seems to support the idea. Vocalists explanation: cant hear themselves in phones.

Vocals have poor tone. My explanation: singer cant control tone properly as fletcher munson effect @100db monitor level is leading them to beleive they are fuller and richer sounding than they really are. Vocalists explanation: straining from being unable to hear themselves in phones has ruined their tone.

General complaints made about the tone of the vocals; that it doesnt sound "like them". Sound on the track matches the vocalists tone in the room rather closely; bandmate asks me 'whats their problem? it sounds like them' when they hear the dry tracks. Vocalist expects takes to sound like high end fully mixed and mastered material submitted as reference straight in.

Tracking in a pretty much dead room (which is also control room; not a major operation here), vocalist is out of centre of the room, back to room, singing at 10-20cm just of rockwool just off the walls around them. Hardly first time tracking vocals by a long shot, but first time I've seen this crap, and this is the most experienced singer I've recorded. Said singer has recorded one other place before; recording to my ears suffers from similar problems. Mentioned that, got shot down .

Cant/wont post clips, sorry. I know they'd be usefull, but I just cant.

So, I realise the language of this post has been a bit loaded, because I'm fucking pissed off, but, serious question: am I a n00b or are they a deaf prima donna? Both? Any advice?

 

[JakeAC5253]

I've run into problems like this before when recording inexperienced musicians. The amount of environmental noise damping the phones provide is an important factor in how high they have to be turned up. It's not uncommon. Something to try would be to have them leave one ear off so they can hear how they sound in the room as well as the instant playback. It sounds like the singer really has no experience if you ask me. If they did they would be familiar with a. what their voice really sounds like played back while it's not vibrating their throat and skull and b. what to do in order to fix/remedy the situation. It sounds like they are a fish out of water and trying to blame you for what shouldn't be your problem in the first place. The performance is on them, and that includes "working the mic" and how to use headphones.

 

[JeffTD]

Honestly, it doesn't matter if he's crazy or if it "should" be fine. He's the performer - if he's not comfortable, he won't perform well (or up to his usual standards, however low they may be).

 

[Skaldir]

Theey are not deaf, but when you sing REALLY LOUD you just can't hear anything out of the cans anymore. I only had problems with very loud singers/screamers and also have the problem myself when I sing loud. Nothing you can do there, except of maybe let him record in the back of the control room with speakers blowing Or try to let him have one without headphone and one with.

 

[amarshism]

Generally too loud in the cans=flat and too quiet=sharp.

 

[punkrockacademyfightsong]

Have him take one side of the headphones off, usually helps people have more control of the pitch and more connection with what they're actually doing in general, it just feels more natural.

 

[Rip-G]

Reverb / delay on vocal track sometimes tends to help, just don't make it subtle, make sure he can hear it.

 

[egan.]

Honestly, it doesn't matter if he's crazy or if it "should" be fine. He's the performer - if he's not comfortable, he won't perform well (or up to his usual standards, however low they may be).

This. A big part of tracking singers is getting them confident and comfortable even if they suck and/or are being difficult. Maybe this guy sucks but either way you've gotten get some tracks.

Also:
-pitching is way easier with different sets of headphones. It's good to have several to try.
-latency can cause overcorrection making pitching hard
-most singers like to be super loud in the phones. It's just a fact.
-Most singers don't want to hear a raw un-eq'd, un-compressed track so make it sound more like a finished product.

 

[punkrockacademyfightsong]

Reverb / delay on vocal track sometimes tends to help, just don't make it subtle, make sure he can hear it.

+1 They have to get the feeling they're somewhat in a different dimension, that way they often dare to do more extreme things.

Also one more piece of advice: put his headphones on, play the music and try some silly singing yourself, at least that way you have a true idea of how it sounds like for him.

And yeah, another +1 for at least some compression on the signal to bring out some more detail, that way they usually pay more attention to detail (timing of "s-es" and so on).

 

[-Noodles-]

Generally too loud in the cans=flat and too quiet=sharp.

Forever, this.

 

[Zozobra]

Cheers folks. I've got em running into a fair bit of compression, nothing major but enough to make it not so merciless for them and stop them straining to bring out detail or hold back when letting loose. I just did that automatically though, and it was on from the word go.

I've since tried the reverb thing to seperate out the vocal from the phones from the one in their head, and inverted the phase of the track as well to try and get it to seperate from the resonance of the skull more with a different vocalist - great success there, was able to drop the vocal level a hell of a lot, and the other vocalist still commented on how easily they could hear what was in the phones. The other singer I've been working with prefers to hear more of the music though - we'll see if that works with this person.

It concerns me, and I'm reluctant to let the vocalist have the full and insanely loud mix because some of the problems of the vocal are so readily explained by the shear volume, and their relative volume to the backing. All things being equal, I wouldnt give a shit what they hear when tracking as long as they perform well, but going out of tune quite a bit, and sharp when out, poor tone, and also (forgot before) poor timing can all be diagnosed with 'phones too loud, rest of mix too low in phones'. I want it to sound good, but I dont want to have to be a dick or upset the person in the process (as aside from anything else, its not the sort of material where an angry and frustrated singer might actually give better takes! Happy and relaxed, for the mixes sake, is best).

Amarshim, too low as far as I know doesnt cause any pitch problems. Too high (the effect starts as low as 60db) forces a wider Q (not sure if the term really applies, but you get the idea) and higher centre frequency resonance in your basilic membrane, which causes IHCs properly ascociated with a higher frequency to delver a signal to the auditory cortex which therefore percieves the pitch as sharp. You may flatten to compensate if youre listening to one thing in isolation and have a very good sense of pitch, but in this case the singer swears blind that they can hear the track, while smashing their ears with loud vocal (to the quite modest track level), so they're probably pitching high to match an incorrect percieved increase in pitch of the track because of the overall SPLs they're hitting their ears with. Or its not the reason at all, but it adds up.

I've also heard that with cans especially the increased pressure in your outer ear from the closed seal can tighten the ear drum and cause a false increase in percieved pitch. Seems plausible, but I havent heard that from a reliable source (the other explanation is more or less lifted from the chapter on psychoacoustics in the sound engineers handbook - utterly superb book, I highly recommend anyone still bothering to read this post buy it now!!).