What does Blackguard do when not touring? (aka the thread that won't die)

[AeonicSlumber]

Alright, this thread has gotten out-of-control ridiculous, so I'm back for one thread and one thread only.

on a positive note....Kataklysm announced thier US tour for next year which does not include....Blackguard, Powerglove, Swashbuckle, Warbringer, or Mutiny Within.

This post basically sums up this entire thread and how unbelievably badly you and Jasonic suffer from "head up the ass" syndrome. You base your perceptions and theories solely off your personal music taste with absolutely no objective backing or resources whatsoever. You have no idea how any of this stuff works and even when people (like Claus) who live it and breathe it reach out and try to explain it to you, you sit there and reply with "well I respect ur opinion brewe, but I dont agreee lol." Yeah, the building's on fire and Claus warned you to get out of the burning building, but instead of doing that you disagree and argue that the fire is really cotton candy.

EVERY ONE OF THOSE BANDS on the Kataklysm tour tours CONSTANTLY. All Shall Perish doesn't tour? ARE YOU KIDDING dude? This is Conducting From the Grave's third tour in 3 months. Why? Because their booking agent is also their label manager. You guys wanted to know a band who got successful from touring their butts off? Well while I could say "every band ever" you've only to look at Sumerian Records and their bands. The Faceless was on every tour (and STILL is) since 2007 and they've hit massive success because of it. Their second CD sold over 6,000 records in one week. Same goes for Periphery, Veil Of Maya, Born Of Osiris etc. All of those bands do RIDICULOUS amounts of touring and they've got the sales to back it up. I don't care what you think of those bands.

You want to know why Blackguard tours constantly? Their booking agent is their manager. That's not even "inside" info. It explicitly says that on their myspace page. If Blackguard didn't make any money on the road, their booking agent wouldn't be managing them. But obviously, the band has had enough success to warrant their AGENT seeing monetary potential in what they're doing enough to go the extra mile and handle all their affairs. Blackguard is actually quite a cash-cow considering they've got one album and have only been touring for like 2 years. Warbringer and Into Eternity, bands you claim received no success, have billboard-charting albums. By the way, Warbringer is managed by a former Century Media head of A&R in the US. But I guess you'd know more than him about success for bands. You two should totally hit him up and tell him that he's totally wrong in what he's been doing for 20 years. Posting a Youtube link in a thread is the real way to go about it.

inb4 you say sales don't matter anymore. They do, because they mean the touring yielded fans who liked them enough to buy the product. Further, the sales go to the label which means the label puts more money into the artist. It's REALLY not rocket science. You don't like Blackguard, Powerglove, etc. Neither do I. But I'm WELL aware that touring is the only way bands can cut through the clutter these days.

Jasonic: If you SERIOUSLY and honestly think that those bands outsell or have the capacity to outsell bands that have been around equally long that tour hard you are deluding yourself simple as that. Agalloch does well, but their sales are nothing compared to your average Sumerian band. Again, this isn't about opinion. What constitutes a "good song" has NOTHING whatsoever to do with this discussion. Agalloch has no record that sold 4,000 copies in week 1. They are not a career band and they do not bust ass like a career band does. Haughm would tell you as much to your face, in all likelihood.

I don't really have an intention of posting here because I'm not well liked around these parts, but it makes me mad how you think you make claims based off of your sole perceptions and when someone who actually knows what he's talking about walks in and throws down, you dismiss him like a child. It's really disgusting. Sorry for stepping on your toes Claus.

 

[Akumu]

You want to know why Blackguard tours constantly? Their booking agent is their manager. That's not even "inside" info. It explicitly says that on their myspace page. If Blackguard didn't make any money on the road, their booking agent wouldn't be managing them. But obviously, the band has had enough success to warrant their AGENT seeing monetary potential in what they're doing enough to go the extra mile and handle all their affairs. Blackguard is actually quite a cash-cow considering they've got one album and have only been touring for like 2 years.

For what it's worth (and I might be wrong here - please correct me if I am), I'm not sure if they even get to pick the tours they go on... I watched a video interview with Paul about a month ago, wherein he mentioned the Deicide tour, and said he didn't even know the dates until the rest of the world got them because he'd just see them pop up online here and there. The interviewer commented that Blackguard would be in that area (California) during March, and Paul's reaction was actually, "Oh, really? Damn, I'll be spending my birthday on the road again..."

I'm not into their studio work much, but I do think they're a fun live band. And I can say from personal experience that they really love their fans and people who support them. One of my fondest moments of this year's ProgPower was when several members of the band appeared right next to me to cheer on Borealis during the Kickoff.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

For what it's worth (and I might be wrong here - please correct me if I am), I'm not sure if they even get to pick the tours they go on... I watched a video interview with Paul about a month ago, wherein he mentioned the Deicide tour, and said he didn't even know the dates until the rest of the world got them because he'd just see them pop up online here and there. The interviewer commented that Blackguard would be in that area (California) during March, and Paul's reaction was actually, "Oh, really? Damn, I'll be spending my birthday on the road again..."

I'm not into their studio work much, but I do think they're a fun live band. And I can say from personal experience that they really love their fans and people who support them. One of my fondest moments of this year's ProgPower was when several members of the band appeared right next to me to cheer on Borealis during the Kickoff.

Alot of times bands delegate a "business" guy to handle all the business related affairs in the band. Sometimes this goes as far as in the case of Dark Tranquillity, with Martin H. actually acting as the band's manager. Paul is most likely not the one who handles Blackguard's business affairs, and if he does, he's probably not as involved as someone else is. Hence, why he might not've known about the tour. But yeah, the opener rarely gets a say in the tour they get on. Gotta take what they can get really.

 

[Magius]

Etc, etc, etc.

More etc, etc, etc

Agreed.

@AS: IMO it's a loss for this forum not to have your arguably tactless, but always insightful and informative posts.

 

[Diabolik]

Alright, this thread has gotten out-of-control ridiculous, so I'm back for one thread and one thread only.



This post basically sums up this entire thread and how unbelievably badly you and Jasonic suffer from "head up the ass" syndrome. You base your perceptions and theories solely off your personal music taste with absolutely no objective backing or resources whatsoever. You have no idea how any of this stuff works and even when people (like Claus) who live it and breathe it reach out and try to explain it to you, you sit there and reply with "well I respect ur opinion brewe, but I dont agreee lol." Yeah, the building's on fire and Claus warned you to get out of the burning building, but instead of doing that you disagree and argue that the fire is really cotton candy.

EVERY ONE OF THOSE BANDS on the Kataklysm tour tours CONSTANTLY. All Shall Perish doesn't tour? ARE YOU KIDDING dude? This is Conducting From the Grave's third tour in 3 months. Why? Because their booking agent is also their label manager. You guys wanted to know a band who got successful from touring their butts off? Well while I could say "every band ever" you've only to look at Sumerian Records and their bands. The Faceless was on every tour (and STILL is) since 2007 and they've hit massive success because of it. Their second CD sold over 6,000 records in one week. Same goes for Periphery, Veil Of Maya, Born Of Osiris etc. All of those bands do RIDICULOUS amounts of touring and they've got the sales to back it up. I don't care what you think of those bands.

You want to know why Blackguard tours constantly? Their booking agent is their manager. That's not even "inside" info. It explicitly says that on their myspace page. If Blackguard didn't make any money on the road, their booking agent wouldn't be managing them. But obviously, the band has had enough success to warrant their AGENT seeing monetary potential in what they're doing enough to go the extra mile and handle all their affairs. Blackguard is actually quite a cash-cow considering they've got one album and have only been touring for like 2 years. Warbringer and Into Eternity, bands you claim received no success, have billboard-charting albums. By the way, Warbringer is managed by a former Century Media head of A&R in the US. But I guess you'd know more than him about success for bands. You two should totally hit him up and tell him that he's totally wrong in what he's been doing for 20 years. Posting a Youtube link in a thread is the real way to go about it.

inb4 you say sales don't matter anymore. They do, because they mean the touring yielded fans who liked them enough to buy the product. Further, the sales go to the label which means the label puts more money into the artist. It's REALLY not rocket science. You don't like Blackguard, Powerglove, etc. Neither do I. But I'm WELL aware that touring is the only way bands can cut through the clutter these days.

Jasonic: If you SERIOUSLY and honestly think that those bands outsell or have the capacity to outsell bands that have been around equally long that tour hard you are deluding yourself simple as that. Agalloch does well, but their sales are nothing compared to your average Sumerian band. Again, this isn't about opinion. What constitutes a "good song" has NOTHING whatsoever to do with this discussion. Agalloch has no record that sold 4,000 copies in week 1. They are not a career band and they do not bust ass like a career band does. Haughm would tell you as much to your face, in all likelihood.

I don't really have an intention of posting here because I'm not well liked around these parts, but it makes me mad how you think you make claims based off of your sole perceptions and when someone who actually knows what he's talking about walks in and throws down, you dismiss him like a child. It's really disgusting. Sorry for stepping on your toes Claus.

I missed that episodes of "The Rich and the Famous: The metal bands" where it featured all the mansions that Warbringer and Blackguard own. I did a youtube search for it and could not find any info. Sure they make money but not to the level you are getting at.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

I missed that episodes of "The Rich and the Famous: The metal bands" where it featured all the mansions that Warbringer and Blackguard own. I did a youtube search for it and could not find any info. Sure they make money but not to the level you are getting at.

Where did I specify a specific amount of money that the band makes, let alone imply that these bands are making enough money that they are rich? Oh yeah, nowhere.

You two argued that these bands tour and tour and by doing so that they have no success whatsoever, even going as far to argue that bands who don't tour yield more success than those who do. You two called it "overexposure" and said it's more harmful. I argued that you two are full of it, basing your own personal tastes and shoehorning them as objective truths when the evidence shows otherwise, and now you try to argue me on something I never implied (not to mention, completely dodging my criticisms of your entire arguments by counter-arguing something completely different because I assume you're too e-stubborn to admit you're e-wrong). Keep going, it will only make you sound cooler I promise. <3

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Agreed.

@AS: IMO it's a loss for this forum not to have your arguably tactless, but always insightful and informative posts.

Thanks, but that's why I don't post here. If this forum feels like I lack tact then I'm not going to bother. I personally think I don't think I'm any more tactless than Glenn or Claus (and before I get my ass handed to me, my implication there is that these two are the standard for PP forum e-ettiquitte and how to behave on here ), but my arguments mean nothing if the masses on this board feel otherwise. Cheers.

 

[Winterheart]

I'm with Claus and Aeonic as well. I have no idea what you other guys are smoking, but just because you're tired of seeing certain bands on tours doesn't mean that their rigorous touring schedule isn't paying off.

The BIGGEST band I can think of who used this strategy are As I Lay Dying. They toured for 2 years straight after Frail Words Collapse came out and that album really didn't bring ANYTHING new or interesting to the blossoming metalcore genre. They also toured with multiple different genres outside of their own. Their touring and promotion payed off big time once the second album came out... and then they KEPT TOURING and got on Ozzfest and such. By the time their third album was coming around they got offers from major records labels. MAJORS, not what we consider majors in the metal community. Now, AILD releases a new album and sells more in one week than some other "better bands musically" do in multiple album releases.

If you don't like metalcore (not that genre matters in this debate at all), I can certainly think of some prog/power metal bands for you. Ever heard of Sonata Arctica? Those guys are massive now and back when Ecliptica came out they were the FOREVER opening band for all the power metal tours in Europe. Even by the time Silence was released they were still opening for Stratovarius constantly.

How about Epica? If not for their piggybacking on pretty much every prog/power tour they could possibly grab for those first few grinding years and their massive support from Kamelot's already established fanbase they would have never caught on like they have now.

Heck, one of my favorite bands is Amon Amarth and they didn't headline their own tours until 3 or 4 albums into their catalog. Now look at how ridiculously big they're becoming! lol

It's all about being in the right place at the right time and there's NO BETTER WAY to increase your chances than to tour as much as you can and put on the best show possible. Do I think Blackguard or some of these other bands are achieving both of those goals? Some are and some aren't. We've already pointed out how well things turned out for Into Eternity and they barely have the same band members anymore or tour. You either make it or break it and you simply can not give these guys any disrespect for trying as hard as they are, whether it ends up effective or not in the end. Do I want to see them again? No. Will that stop me from going to their shows and supporting them? No. I guess that just comes from having the band mentality and knowing what it's like to try and achieve that dream.

 

[Diabolik]

We are not comparing US to Euro tours...this is a US based tour thread we are talking about. I dont even bother mentioning the metalcore tours...to me that stuff doesnt exist. Amon Amarth did do lots of tours but no where near as many as Blackguard has done in 1 year alone. At most like 2 a year in the states. They did it smart while Blackguard has just ben jumping on every tour possible. Amon Amarth also write quality songs and put on a killer live show....unlike Blackguard.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Thanks, but that's why I don't post here. If this forum feels like I lack tact then I'm not going to bother. I personally think I don't think I'm any more tactless than Glenn or Claus, but my arguments mean nothing if the masses on this board feel otherwise. Cheers.

Previously when you posted here, I said a lot of it was due to your condescending tone at times. I have to admit this time (outside of the comment aimed towards Jason and Bob) you conducted yourself much better. I think you make some excellent points and you bring up some interesting information, but the problem is that you take things a little too seriously. You can correct everyone else on this forum if their opinion differs, but if someone disagrees with you, you act as though you're a victim and it's as easy as you're right and they're wrong. This is a forum for crying out loud, and it is meant to have discussion and debate. I've been on a number of metal forums over the years here and there, and I gotta say this one is better conducted ones -- not to mention that people tend to be more polite than in other ones. I really don't get your negativity with this board. Just make your points and debate with people, without having to personally attack others.

As for my opinion on this matter, I agree with bits and pieces from everyone. I agree with Claus and admire (to a certain extent) the bands that try tour frequently to obtain new fans. However, as some have said, bands do need to limit themselves in doing this because if a band tours too much, people who may have liked them (but not overly so) may begin to hate them. There definitely is a such thing as overexposure and I think bands like Blackguard have done this and would be better suited to work on a new album or whatever instead of that extra tour or two.

I disagree that talking about the music has nothing to do with this conversation though since the conversation got into what ways are the best in terms of gaining more popularity as a band. Sure, touring will get your name out there, but if the music sucks, it still sucks. However, as Jason said, bands that make great albums have a good chance at word of mouth. I know there have been tons of bands I've never heard of before this site, and after hearing said bands I've gone on to pick up their material. Word of mouth is very valuable to up and coming bands, and I know I can't be the only metal fan it has affected. To reiterate, bands who tour often should be commended for trying to get their name out there, but at the end of the day if the music sucks and doesn't appeal to fans, they're going to be no better off.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Amon Amarth also write quality songs and put on a killer live show....unlike Blackguard.

Indeed they do. One of my faves that's for sure.

 

[Diabolik]

I agree with what Simon is saying....sometimes "word of mouth" can be better than a few tours. Agalloch is a perfect example....when they played Chicago last year they never really have done any big tours nor played Chicago but from strong word of mouth alone and writing good songs....they sold out the venue. There was also all weak support for them band wise so it wasnt a local band draw helping out. Look at just the word of mouth from this thread on Atlantean Kodex who are a great band. Like Jason said more people will go out and search their stuff and buy it before Blackguard. It is a tricky thing when it comes to playing live. This goes for local bands who will just play any show. Sure it gets thier name out there but after a while you become that band who plays everywhere and people will eventually get sick of seeing you. It is a double edge sword. You have to be smart with doing this and be selective. Everyone has made good points from both sides of the argument. Basically the winner of this battle will be when Blackguard eventually burnout and fade away to becoming that legendary opening band who was on every tour from 2009 to whenever.

 

[RagePSV]

Every time I read comments like these about Blackguard (and Powerglove, Into Eternity and a few other hard working bands), I have to smack myself over the forehead to keep from yelling "IDIOT" right back in your face.

Our scene is tiny, and there are only very few bands who are able to "make it" big at any given time. Often it has a heck of a lot to do with "luck" who actually makes it, or in some cases who they are "sleeping with" (metaphorically ...). But then there are those bands that takes it upon themselves to jump on every tour there is out there, paying their way throughout the country, and facing a new audience each and every night. Make no mistake, it's a costly thing to do, and I (without knowing the guys in Blackguard) am sure it has been a financial stress/burden as well as one with several personal sacrifices to be touring as much as they are. However, this is the only REAL way to make it to the point where music can become a career. You can write great albums, but if you're not at the right place at the right time, you're not going to become anything more than an amateur band. That's why you see Blackguard on every single tour there is, that's why you used to see Into Eternity on every single tour there was (until that cost them too many lineup changes for that to be any fun anymore), that's why (and HOW) Firewind did earlier on to make sure they got to where they are, that's why (and HOW) Kamelot did, etc ... tour tour tour ... and you'll eventually make it big or it's going to break up your band.

I've watched Blackguard live and I didn't like their music one bit - but, I have a tremendous amount of respect for them, cause they are road-dogging it 100% in their quest to become a success.

Quit bitching and be happy that there are some bands out there who actually face the hard odds of this business and fight to amount to something.

c.

Agree 100%

 

[Diamond45]

Saw them at ProgPower this year... they were OK...

Looks like I'll see them with SymX in May 2011...

Hey, at least they don't suck like Powerglove!

 

[General Zod]

I personally think I don't think I'm any more tactless than Glenn or Claus (and before I get my ass handed to me, my implication there is that these two are the standard for PP forum e-ettiquitte and how to behave on here)...

The two are the standard if you run the place.

There are always two ways to make a point.; with name calling/profanity and without. It seems to me that if you opt for the former, people will simply tune you out. Try taking the high road a bit more often. You could have made all the same points in your initial post, without beginning your response by telling someone they have their head up their ass.

 

[Justin G]

Amon Amarth also write quality songs and put on a killer live show....unlike Blackguard.

I can understand not digging Blackguard's style or album, but they put on a hell of a live show.

 

[jem777az]

One band I can think of that has toured extensively as an opener and is now headlining is Trivium. About 4-5 years ago it seemed like Trivium was the opener on every damn tour that I went to see. Arch Enemy, Machine Head, In Flames, etc, etc. I remember complaining to my friends that I was sick of seeing them open for every band I liked. Now in the last year or two Trivium is headlining in the exact same venues where they were previously the opener. While I don't really care for their music, I have to give them respect for paying their dues and reaching a headliner status because of the exposure and hard work.

 

[Diabolik]

I can understand not digging Blackguard's style or album, but they put on a hell of a live show.

they are the ultimate generic metal band. Nothing in their music stands out and draws me in. Live they are just a standard live act. They bring nothing interesting live. I have seen them twice now and both times I wanted to pull my hair out.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

There definitely is a such thing as overexposure.

Evidence to support this please. I have provided enough evidence to support the opposite. This is why I feel like I am right, and you are wrong. You make generalizations, I suggest that your arguments are ridiculous. You can argue that playing 200 shows in Rhode Island a year is overexposure maybe because it's such a small state and nobody is going to sit there every night of the year. But playing the same general market once a month within a 3-6 month span is not overexposure. It's the opposite. If it wasn't the opposite, you would not see the existence of 360 deals where labels take band's tour earnings, or labels such as Sumerian and NoiseArt Records which are owned an operated by actual booking agents. If it wasn't a successful venutre, you wouldn't see agents and label guys getting involved in artist management which is now the norm well. Constant touring yields success (unless of course the strain of the touring is such that the band can't take it anymore and breaks up), and all of the above is actual proof of that.

Blackguard have done this and would be better suited to work on a new album or whatever instead of that extra tour or two.

Who said they weren't working on a new album? More pointless conjecture on your end.

I disagree that talking about the music has nothing to do with this conversation though since the conversation got into what ways are the best in terms of gaining more popularity as a band. Sure, touring will get your name out there, but if the music sucks, it still sucks.

And THIS is the crux of my argument. (Now) You, Jasonic, and Diabolik are arguing personal taste and shoehorning it as fact. You and I and most metal fans would say Attack Attack! and Emmure suck, but they toured their butts off and became successful acts at doing so. We think they suck, others disagree. Subjective musical tastes have nothing to do with this. If you can't see that, you're deluding yourself man.

Comments like these

I dont even bother mentioning the metalcore tours...to me that stuff doesnt exist.Amon Amarth also write quality songs and put on a killer live show....unlike Blackguard.

Are proof of that. All thread, these two have been clamoring for an example of hard touring acts that became successful, and when someone presents them with a band that has done so they disregard it because it's a band they don't like. They let their personal tastes get into this debate which makes them totally and utterly wrong (not to mention, saying "that stuff doesn't matter" when proven wrong is akin to some sort of childish colloquialism along the lines of "neener neener neener I am rubber you are glue"). We're not talking about whether God exists or abortion (you know, super-complex issues with many sides and opinions and arguments), we're talking about whether touring works. Those who have presented evidence that it does have gotten disrespected which is why I'm posting on here in the first place.

Atlantean Kodex who are a great band. Like Jason said more people will go out and search their stuff and buy it before Blackguard.

Except more likely than not actual sales figures will disagree with you. Again... my point...

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Oh and for those that say Amon Amarth and Children Of Bodom didn't tour hard... well that's nonsense. Early 2004 Bodom alone did the Dimmu tour, in mid 2004 they did the Iced Earth tour, and at the end of 2004 they did the Lamb Of God/FF tour (which was essential to breaking the band out to a mainstream audience. They would not have gotten there though, if it wasn't for those two other tours). That's 3 tours in one year. Bodom continues to do 2-3 tours a year to stay afloat in the charts. Again, your perceptions are deceiving you.