- Dec 22, 2008
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I've been thinking about making a thread like this for a while because of how so many threads degenerate into a Power vs Prog thread. Each time this happens it usually resolves with people agreeing to disagree and that everyone has their own opinions about what each style is. That said, I still think there has to be a common thread of what a style is; whether a band completely fits that style is another debate entirely.
First, I'd like to clarify that I am looking to define Prog and not Progressive. I take Prog to be a style of music where progressive is something that is pushing genre boundaries. Progressive for the definitions as I am using here is someone who is taking a common subgenre sound (thrash, power, prog, metal, etc) and is adding new style components and elements to it. This could spawn a secondary debate that once something becomes too progressive it becomes Prog.
Defining Prog:
I think that in general when we discuss Prog we are talking about bands that don't usually have as much edge and usually have more complexity to their music. Let's examine some of the elements of these bands that common threads between them in an attempt to define Prog.
1. Odd Time Signatures
This isn't necessarily a given, but often it is a stereotype of Prog. I think this leads more into the next point thanbeing a single important pooint on its own. Lots of bands outside Prog use odd signatures as well.
2. Changing time signatures
Often I find when I listen to a Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree, (insert band name here), and so on song that I can usually identify a consistent beat. But what's important about that is the number of beats per measure and the feel of those beats is often changing. Transitionss from 2/4 to 6/8 to 4/4 in a song are the kinds of changes I associate with Prog elements.
3. Changing tempos
This is an element I think that is shared across many subgenres of metal, but it is important to identify because every epic long prog song I can think of has feel and tempo changes within some part of the song. I think that Prog songs will use the more, where a Power song might have one or two changes, a long prog song might have for instance five.
4. Off beat rhythms
This is definitely an element of prog because it shows a mechnical mathematic that is associated with making complex songs. Not that all Prog is complex. I would say something like This is Your Life by Threshold isn't overly complicated but because of the feel, pace, and phrasing of the song. This element might also be better served by referencing odd/complicated phrasings to the structural component of the song as well.
5. Evolving and sliding riffs
Something I associate with prog is how you often see rhythms change with each iteration of being played. Part of it is the desire to build the structure of the composition to find a climax point; some of it is just a sick desire to be complex because it sounds cool. The sliding riff component is the use of sliding in verses and chorus parts in manners that add complexitiy to the structure of the composition. Examples I would use here would be Orphaned Land's Mabool, Threshold, Redemption's The Fullness of Time, or DT's Under a Glass Moon.
6. Structure and Layering
Many prog bands will layer many sounds and rhythms atop one another. THis is not meant to be symphonic arrangements per se, but more importantly the structure of normal band members playing differing parts. For instance A Legend's Avalon by Thought Chamber uses an excellent accoustic guitar layer in the chorus of the song. Another example could be Pain of Salvation. Where often many of the individual parts are simple, they combine to form a greater composition that has a more full depth and complexity. Another way structuring and layering often appears in prog is in the vocals. Vocal harmonizing is a part of structuring and layering in music in my opinion (though you could argue it deservees to be its own element). Bands like Transatlantic and Ayreon have doen masterful jobs harmonizing vocals.
7. Feel
This is the completely subjective one, but I thnk we can agree that there is a legacy to Prog. So what I would say is that bands who have similar sounds to groups like Yes, Rush, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, and etc are going to be more likely to be prog. This can continue on to bands influenced by Queensryche, Fate's Warning, DT, or Roine Stolt.
In the end a lot of bands can have these elements and may still not be prog. At the end it is still a very subjective debate but I believe by using common trends we can identify more of what Prog actually is. When it comes to some bands I think we'll always be lost. Some of those bands might be better served by making the distinction then about which albums of theirs are a certain style instead of generalizing the band. Recently there was some debate of Royal Hunt being Prog or Power. There are many prog elements in their music, but to my ear their album collision course had more epic sound to it and therefore was more power than prog. But then when they played the last progpower they brought more of a deep purple sound (in my opinion) which was not nearly as power as I expected. This leads me to not call RH power and makes me want to define specific albums of theirs as a genre then the entire band being confined to a specific sound.
We could go on for an eternity about individual bands and about exceptions to the "rules". These are my thoughts of Prog elements to define Prog, what elements do you guys all think define Prog?
Is it even worth trying to define a genre by elements?
First, I'd like to clarify that I am looking to define Prog and not Progressive. I take Prog to be a style of music where progressive is something that is pushing genre boundaries. Progressive for the definitions as I am using here is someone who is taking a common subgenre sound (thrash, power, prog, metal, etc) and is adding new style components and elements to it. This could spawn a secondary debate that once something becomes too progressive it becomes Prog.
Defining Prog:
I think that in general when we discuss Prog we are talking about bands that don't usually have as much edge and usually have more complexity to their music. Let's examine some of the elements of these bands that common threads between them in an attempt to define Prog.
1. Odd Time Signatures
This isn't necessarily a given, but often it is a stereotype of Prog. I think this leads more into the next point thanbeing a single important pooint on its own. Lots of bands outside Prog use odd signatures as well.
2. Changing time signatures
Often I find when I listen to a Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree, (insert band name here), and so on song that I can usually identify a consistent beat. But what's important about that is the number of beats per measure and the feel of those beats is often changing. Transitionss from 2/4 to 6/8 to 4/4 in a song are the kinds of changes I associate with Prog elements.
3. Changing tempos
This is an element I think that is shared across many subgenres of metal, but it is important to identify because every epic long prog song I can think of has feel and tempo changes within some part of the song. I think that Prog songs will use the more, where a Power song might have one or two changes, a long prog song might have for instance five.
4. Off beat rhythms
This is definitely an element of prog because it shows a mechnical mathematic that is associated with making complex songs. Not that all Prog is complex. I would say something like This is Your Life by Threshold isn't overly complicated but because of the feel, pace, and phrasing of the song. This element might also be better served by referencing odd/complicated phrasings to the structural component of the song as well.
5. Evolving and sliding riffs
Something I associate with prog is how you often see rhythms change with each iteration of being played. Part of it is the desire to build the structure of the composition to find a climax point; some of it is just a sick desire to be complex because it sounds cool. The sliding riff component is the use of sliding in verses and chorus parts in manners that add complexitiy to the structure of the composition. Examples I would use here would be Orphaned Land's Mabool, Threshold, Redemption's The Fullness of Time, or DT's Under a Glass Moon.
6. Structure and Layering
Many prog bands will layer many sounds and rhythms atop one another. THis is not meant to be symphonic arrangements per se, but more importantly the structure of normal band members playing differing parts. For instance A Legend's Avalon by Thought Chamber uses an excellent accoustic guitar layer in the chorus of the song. Another example could be Pain of Salvation. Where often many of the individual parts are simple, they combine to form a greater composition that has a more full depth and complexity. Another way structuring and layering often appears in prog is in the vocals. Vocal harmonizing is a part of structuring and layering in music in my opinion (though you could argue it deservees to be its own element). Bands like Transatlantic and Ayreon have doen masterful jobs harmonizing vocals.
7. Feel
This is the completely subjective one, but I thnk we can agree that there is a legacy to Prog. So what I would say is that bands who have similar sounds to groups like Yes, Rush, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, and etc are going to be more likely to be prog. This can continue on to bands influenced by Queensryche, Fate's Warning, DT, or Roine Stolt.
In the end a lot of bands can have these elements and may still not be prog. At the end it is still a very subjective debate but I believe by using common trends we can identify more of what Prog actually is. When it comes to some bands I think we'll always be lost. Some of those bands might be better served by making the distinction then about which albums of theirs are a certain style instead of generalizing the band. Recently there was some debate of Royal Hunt being Prog or Power. There are many prog elements in their music, but to my ear their album collision course had more epic sound to it and therefore was more power than prog. But then when they played the last progpower they brought more of a deep purple sound (in my opinion) which was not nearly as power as I expected. This leads me to not call RH power and makes me want to define specific albums of theirs as a genre then the entire band being confined to a specific sound.
We could go on for an eternity about individual bands and about exceptions to the "rules". These are my thoughts of Prog elements to define Prog, what elements do you guys all think define Prog?
Is it even worth trying to define a genre by elements?
