yassin is dead
- Thread starter rotten_doll
- Start date
A sad thing to have happend. But all I can hope for is that it doesn't get any worse than it already is.
As for a solution, that will come when it comes, all we can do before that is live our lives as best as we can.
Cheers.
As for a solution, that will come when it comes, all we can do before that is live our lives as best as we can.
Cheers.
FailingAcension
Spiffy, eh?
TB666
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Dead Winter
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Wandrail
I'm your Huckleberry
I don't even know where to begin with you, my friend...although of course you're right about the KKK.bobvex said:
The US Government are not terrorists, and this type of statement, usually extremely uneducated, is so cliched and typical in this subculture. Not that I have a problem with BobVex - I don't even know the dude - I simply find it very difficult to let drive-by comments like that stand. My biggest gripe with US military action is the Lincoln administration's invasion of sovereign states, but that was over a century ago and a domestic action. Our current and past foreign military exploits, more than any other country in history have been noble in aim and humanitarian in execution. I do not desire to get into another open conversation about my country's military actions because i've had them plenty on here, in case you've missed that fun, and i've put my reasoning and thoughts on these things out there pretty clearly, successfully and at some length, as have others. I really don't have time to participate in such discussions right now. The IRA also, while truly a bunch of marxist terrorists today, were at one time the driving force for Ireland's independence, believing as America does and France once did in democratic republican government. The 'Real IRA' of today is nothing like the IRA of decades ago, who wanted freedom and independence from England and authoritarian government, just as America did. I know many people, especially those who are in college right now and fancy themselves very high-minded would say 'What's the difference between the IRA, American Revolutionaries, the Real IRA and Hamas anyway? They are all social and political movements fighting for an equal voice, and who is to say which is right and which is wrong' blah blah blah. I'll just say I'm very familiar with this kind of thinking, I understand its point, and I don't care about pointless relativistic philosophical arguments that are designed to make people feel like they're smart when they talk to each other. I'm sorry that sounded nasty, but i've had a bad day at work, and I care deeply for my USA, and for Ireland, too, actually.
Now, that being said - I am a bit miffed at President Bush at this moment, though I support him and will absolutely vote for him, and my displeasure is with his statement that the administration is 'deeply troubled' by the news of Yassin getting splattered by an Israeli missile. I support Israel 100%, as the administration says they do, and I wish they would not border on this kind of hypocrisy. Sharon is basically practicing the Bush terrorism doctrine, which is preemptive action. No one has more of a right to engaging in this action than Israel, and Yassin oversaw the deaths of hundreds of Israelis in suicide bombing over the past numbers of years - I want Bush to come out and say GOOD RIDDANCE, just as we will say about Bin Laden and said about Hussein. There is no hope for Bush's 'roadmap to peace', these groups Hamas and the PLO and Al Aqsa talk about cooperation just to give them enough room to slip another bomber past. I do not like double-standards, and we should not expect Israel to sit there and continue to let their children and citizens get blown to smithereens for another ten years while they beat their heads against a wall trying to pursue diplomatic avenues with groups that are really just playing a deadly game of cat and mouse, just to appease European intellectuals and to try and give another American president a chance at the Nobel peace prize. Israel is strong, and these terrorists stand no chance against them. There is of course danger now, but there has always been. Hamas now says they will not stop until every Israeli is dead, but that's really nothing different from what they've been saying since their inception. And as long as a liberal democrat isn't commander in chief, America will stand by Israel. A dose of reason, democracy and independent thought in the formerly fascist Iraq could also finally serve as the catalyst for widespread ideological change in the middle east - and that is the real cure for this problem.
Wandrail
I'm your Huckleberry
Well, actually, the event in the bible depicts a host of nations trying to destroy Israel - namely the entire collection of arab/islamic nations and potentially Russia, and they are somehow defeated. The alliance that is made is between the anti-christ (head of a renewed Romanesque empire) and Israel, allowing Israel to reconstruct the Temple, in a gesture of mock friendship. Also, Israel and Palestine have been fighting for a long time, but really, the history is as follows: Jerusalem is conquered by Rome in the year 70CE, I think. Rome subdues many Jewish rebellions and renames Jerusalem Palestine in an attempt to further Romanize it between 132-136. A 'palestinian' was therefore a Jew, and this did not change until sometime in the middle ages, when Jews had gradually dispersed to Europe and stastically few of them remained compared to Arabs, Turks, what have you. And Islam did not even come into existence until almost 700AD anyway. Thought you would like to know that.bobvex said:
Destroyer Of Orden
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bobvex said:
Hah hah hah... the American Government being directly compared to the KKK... priceless (so damned true)
At any rate, this is going to get VERY ugly... My door is always open there Rotten Doll
Wandrail
I'm your Huckleberry
It's been very ugly in Israel since the Jews finally reclaimed their nation - in 1948 every arab/islamic nation around them tried to annihilate them, and were remarkably unsuccessful and inept in their attempt. Appeasement never works against terrorism or against any foe - I only regret that Israel didn't finish some of these guys off when they've had the chance in recent years. This is inevitable, and the outcome is without a doubt Israel's victory. All their attempts at diplomacy while getting slaughtered, all their cheek-turning has not satisfied Europe or American leftists, so what the hell. Do what you must do to defend your people, and if someone wants to make a fight a 'you against me' sort of thing, well, then the only doctrine that can win the day is victory - no amount of talk or concessions will yield change, only suicide.
i was kidding. . .Wandrail said:I don't even know where to begin with you, my friend...although of course you're right about the KKK.
The IRA also, while truly a bunch of marxist terrorists today, were at one time the driving force for Ireland's independence, believing as America does and France once did in democratic republican government. The 'Real IRA' of today is nothing like the IRA of decades ago, who wanted freedom and independence from England and authoritarian government, just as America did. I know many people, especially those who are in college right now and fancy themselves very high-minded would say 'What's the difference between the IRA, American Revolutionaries, the Real IRA and Hamas anyway? They are all social and political movements fighting for an equal voice, and who is to say which is right and which is wrong' blah blah blah. I'll just say I'm very familiar with this kind of thinking, I understand its point, and I don't care about pointless relativistic philosophical arguments that are designed to make people feel like they're smart when they talk to each other. I'm sorry that sounded nasty, but i've had a bad day at work, and I care deeply for my USA, and for Ireland, too, actually.
Now, that being said - I am a bit miffed at President Bush at this moment, though I support him and will absolutely vote for him, and my displeasure is with his statement that the administration is 'deeply troubled' by the news of Yassin getting splattered by an Israeli missile. I support Israel 100%, as the administration says they do, and I wish they would not border on this kind of hypocrisy. Sharon is basically practicing the Bush terrorism doctrine, which is preemptive action. No one has more of a right to engaging in this action than Israel, and Yassin oversaw the deaths of hundreds of Israelis in suicide bombing over the past numbers of years - I want Bush to come out and say GOOD RIDDANCE, just as we will say about Bin Laden and said about Hussein. There is no hope for Bush's 'roadmap to peace', these groups Hamas and the PLO and Al Aqsa talk about cooperation just to give them enough room to slip another bomber past. I do not like double-standards, and we should not expect Israel to sit there and continue to let their children and citizens get blown to smithereens for another ten years while they beat their heads against a wall trying to pursue diplomatic avenues with groups that are really just playing a deadly game of cat and mouse, just to appease European intellectuals and to try and give another American president a chance at the Nobel peace prize. Israel is strong, and these terrorists stand no chance against them. There is of course danger now, but there has always been. Hamas now says they will not stop until every Israeli is dead, but that's really nothing different from what they've been saying since their inception. And as long as a liberal democrat isn't commander in chief, America will stand by Israel. A dose of reason, democracy and independent thought in the formerly fascist Iraq could also finally serve as the catalyst for widespread ideological change in the middle east - and that is the real cure for this problem.
Now that was quite an impressive speech there Eric, and I dont expect anything I can say to change your view on things. Id like to state though that I highly doubt the effect of this kind of actions.. all it ever seems to lead to is an endless chain of retaliations, and I still dont see Israel being any closer to victory than years ago.
Do you really think that one day the Hamas will give in? Is that what you read into statements like "We're ready for the total war on Israel!"? You just stand there saying "Appeasement never works with Terrorists!", so the only answer is to eliminate them. But then again, I havent seen Israel showing much interest in cooperation or an end of the conflict, which would have helped...
My information about how the conflict started is too vague, I'll have to refresh that, but what matters most today is to find a basis for negociations, and all I see is both parties trying to kill each other. I dont see how you can critisize Palestine murders and try to justify Israel's murders by saying they're only protecting their country, while, if I remember correctly, the land they live on was once owned by Palestinians.
I think it's time to stop with this bullshit and find ways to coexist in peace and I dont see anyone trying to find a way towards that. Neither are the Palestinians with their continued bombing or the Israelis, breaking promises they made in earlier plans for peace..
Im not saying the Palestinians are right, all Im saying is that there's a lot of bullshit going on there and that we need both sides to stop with it. I dont understand how you can paint the situation in black and white, being as it is.
Do you really think that one day the Hamas will give in? Is that what you read into statements like "We're ready for the total war on Israel!"? You just stand there saying "Appeasement never works with Terrorists!", so the only answer is to eliminate them. But then again, I havent seen Israel showing much interest in cooperation or an end of the conflict, which would have helped...
My information about how the conflict started is too vague, I'll have to refresh that, but what matters most today is to find a basis for negociations, and all I see is both parties trying to kill each other. I dont see how you can critisize Palestine murders and try to justify Israel's murders by saying they're only protecting their country, while, if I remember correctly, the land they live on was once owned by Palestinians.
I think it's time to stop with this bullshit and find ways to coexist in peace and I dont see anyone trying to find a way towards that. Neither are the Palestinians with their continued bombing or the Israelis, breaking promises they made in earlier plans for peace..
Im not saying the Palestinians are right, all Im saying is that there's a lot of bullshit going on there and that we need both sides to stop with it. I dont understand how you can paint the situation in black and white, being as it is.
shits about to hit the fan in israel huh tal? would send you e-hugs if that would help... or you and your boy could come shack up with moi!
....wishful thinking.
*sends e-hugs anyway* you'll be alright, just look after yourself and your own.
would send you e-hugs if that would help... or you and your boy could come shack up with moi! ....wishful thinking.
*sends e-hugs anyway* you'll be alright, just look after yourself and your own.
Wandrail
I'm your Huckleberry
TB666
Member
Wandrail
I'm your Huckleberry
I understand your point of view, my friend, and of course a hope and desire for peace is a noble thing. Truth is, since Israel's creation (since they were being killed and kicked out of europe) out of Palestine which was originally theirs in the first place, Israel has been set upon by radical Islamicists who are told from birth that the Jews have violated God's laws, lie by saying they are the rightful legitimate seed of Abraham, kill their prophets, etc etc, and that the only honorable thing to do for God and themselves is to kill them wherever they may be. The Jews do not believe all muslims should die. Maybe you just haven't paid that close attention over the last decade or so, but under the Clinton administration and under the Bush administration Israel has made many good will gestures toward palestine. They have released numbers of imprisoned Palestinian terrorists (stupid move) back to the PLO at their demand, they had pulled troops out of certain areas, time and time again, outside forces, third parties usually from my country take both sides and get Israel to drop their guard and offer concessions to palestine - and pretty much each time the pseudo-peace is ended with a suicide bombing. The US did not defeat the encroaching communist machine of the USSR under the Carter administration's policy of weakness, which thrilled liberals everywhere. Our disarming as some sort of..I don't know near buddhist thinking military policy was greeted by the USSR with smiles and official statements of cooperationw hile they continued to take over 3rd world country after 3rd world country and expand their military at a historically unseen rate. President Reagan's common sense policy of strength won the day - averting war and eventually reuniting east and west Germany. I do not doubt people's desire for peace being genuine who say things like 'without weapons and soldiers there would be no war' but noble as their desire for peace may be, they lack a massive amount of common wisdom about human nature, history, the world around them in a fundamental nature, hell its just dunderheaded, naive thinking that would see only those men with ambition and a lack of desire for justice hold sway in our world. Everyone doesn't want peace. Hitler did not want peace, Churchill knew it, and just like the anti-war people of today, they derided Churchill for his plea for action. Europe did not want a war, and Neville Chamberlain practiced the very pacifism people seem to want these days and it only succeeded in getting more British and other people killed in the end, for while Hitler would have been easy to put down in his early days, by the time England waited for the threat to be imminent, the war machine was almost too strong for them. We have to learn from history, some wars have been miserable plays for lands and of people against people, but middle ages europe is not the field of battle today, this is not the 100 years war, these battles are for liberty, to defend civilian populaces, to stem the tide of arbitrary slaughter on the part of people who are motivated by the fact that you aren't like them. War is not war is not war, we are in Iraq to finish a job we started, to make sure a defiant dictator did not fire off a nuclear or biological missile into Jerusalem, and on the higher level to affect change in the middle east that can finally begin to put an end to Jihadism. Reason is the real weapon here, but its implementation takes time and cannot be forced but granted to a people who then must apply it themselves. A democratic government in Iraq is the start, and if the fascist government of Iran finally falls to its domestic, democratic minded dissidents then that will help too. Lives are at stake here, and its easy to sit on our other continents and in our other isolated, peaceful countries and call on Israel to sustain more deaths and sit and do nothing in the name of some idea of what peace ought to be, but its a different story for those who lose family and friends at the hands of those who hate you because of your descendency from a man named Abraham many millenia ago. There will be no end to Hamas' violence, you are right, at least not until Israel finally ends it. I think if someone killed your mother or brother or sister because they think northern europeans are the spawn of satan you wouldn't be so anxious to turn the other cheek. If all men could follow Christ's example then yes these ideas of peace would succeed, we would all treat each other as we would wish to be treated - but only one man in history ever followed Christ's example - and that is Christ himself so lets not be naive and tell people they should gamble lives on another pacifist policy in the face of bigotry and fanatical relgion fueled violence. That's all I'm sayin'.Northern Viking said:
Wandrail
I'm your Huckleberry
bobvex said:i was kidding. . .
I see...well, you have a right to your opinion either way, I was just contributing to the...discourse. Yeah ok, so the Palestinians want every Jew dead and the Israelis have to protect their country.. but I just today read that 30% of the 1,3 million Palestinians are in some for members of the Hamas.. that makes almost 400.000 people.. now what do you suggest, carpet bombing?
I dont think their hatred goes as deep as you say and I dont think Israel's offers have been as generous and without catch as you say, so yes, I believe there is room for negociations, only both sides are so wrapped up in their fucked up fanatic thoughts that they have a Hell of a time approaching each other. There have been more peaceful times, times when it really looked as if there was a solution, but ever since Rabin was murdered and Sharon came along, I havent seen that.
I dont think their hatred goes as deep as you say and I dont think Israel's offers have been as generous and without catch as you say, so yes, I believe there is room for negociations, only both sides are so wrapped up in their fucked up fanatic thoughts that they have a Hell of a time approaching each other. There have been more peaceful times, times when it really looked as if there was a solution, but ever since Rabin was murdered and Sharon came along, I havent seen that.
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