Consenting Adults?

Norsemaiden

barbarian
Dec 12, 2005
1,903
6
38
Britain
This article sums up a lot of concerns regarding how much liberty should be allowed to people, if the result of that liberty is the ruination of society and the path to misery for everyone.

What do you all think of it? Is it right that people's fun should be spoiled by other people who warn us of the price to be paid for being irresponsible?

Personally, I have been won around to this way of thinking although I had not always realised that it really could matter as much as it does. No man is an island - and we all have to think about the cumulative effect of individual behaviour.

Before one can intelligently discuss sexual policy, one must dispell the great myth of our age. People often ask, "why can't we just say that anything consenting adults do is OK?" Well, it's not OK because it has a long list of negative consequences:

1. Sexually-transmitted diseases are no joke. Thanks to them, the average life-expectancy of a gay man is now 40, compared to 71 for all men. Something like 20% of British women aged 25-30 are sterile because of STDs.

2. Making "consenting adults" the standard means polygamy, bestiality, prostitution and God-knows-what-else must be accepted, in the long run. One cannot endorse an idea that leads logically to this conclusion and expect that conclusion not to be reached when lust, money, and liberalism will be straining to reach it. So unless we want brothels to be as common and as public as Tesco, there have to be some limits.

Some people suggest that such things are acceptable in private but not in public, but this solution will not work. It is unrealistic to expect that we can accept such things in private but condemn them in public, because allowing people to do these things in private results in the formation of interest groups that will then demand public acceptance. And if people get used to seeing such things in private, the shock of seeing them in public will wear off and they will cease to care.

3. Tolerating "anything between consenting adults" will not lead to a libertarian paradise, but:

a. For the underclass, it will produce a wasteland of broken homes, fatherless children, and mindless couplings. See Theodore Dalrymple's Life at the Bottom:

b. For everyone else, it will produce an emotionally cruel social order which provides superficial pleasures for the rich and the pretty at the expense of misery for everyone else. It will culturally and socially disenfranchise the old and push the young into premature maturity.

c. It will cause young people to waste their 20's chasing short-term flings rather than getting married, and when they finally figure out that this is a recipe for unfulfilled lives and continual heartbreak, they'll be in their early 30's and half of them will not be able to establish stable households before female fertility declines.

4. A sexual order whose central concept is "consenting adults" will by definition be very selfish towards persons who are not adults, i.e. children. The easy availability of extra-marital sex encourages divorce and makes the children of the partner's previous marriages or cohabitations into nuisances. It will result in a ruthlessly adult-centric social order in which children are degraded, ignored, and not raised properly.

5. Making "consenting adults" the rule undermines social cohesion by making everyone into a sexual competitor to everyone else. The most ordinary recreational or civic organizations will suffer and the whole tone of life poisoned. Furthermore, because this makes innocent flirting not so innocent, it actually produces a de-eroticized culture with the coldness of Dangerous Liaisons.

6. Accepting the sexual revolution means conceding that traditional British culture was as stupid as Tony Blair thinks it is. It means admitting the left was correct. It means giving up one of the best cultural sticks we have to beat the liberal establishment with. And accepting polygamy means giving up one of the best politically-correct cultural sticks we have to beat Islam with.

7. A certain sexual self-restraint has long been part of the culture of Britain and was, in my view, a source of national greatness as male sexual energy was channelled into other pursuits and female sexual energy into the family. Can it really be an accident that our zenith of national greatness coincided with Victorian sexual restraint, and that Rome's decline set in just about the time orgies became fashionable?
http://www.bnp.org.uk/articles/traditional_values.html
 
People often ask, "why can't we just say that anything consenting adults do is OK?" Well, it's not OK because it has a long list of negative consequences:
gun ownership
idiots being allowed to vote
bullying
religion
...lots of things have negative consequences, and these are all consensual (in so far as the bullying is only freedom of speech).

1. Sexually-transmitted diseases are no joke.
far as I know you do get in trouble with the law if you're HIV Pos. and don't tell your sexual partners.

2. Making "consenting adults" the standard means polygamy, bestiality, prostitution and God-knows-what-else must be accepted, in the long run.
beastiality? that's quite a jump, given that it isn't just to do with adults (but hey, the consensual adult argument aside, if we can put a bolt through a cows head, why can't we rip up a rabbits vagina?).
Prostitution is legal here, and I don't see why it shouldn't be.
Liberty does mean the right to things we don't like. 'omg two wives thats so wrong' is no different to 'omg did he just draw a cartoon of Muhammad?', appealing to personal distastes is just a cheap ploy to gain supporters, right up there with bribing tax cuts to get voters knowing people will always consider their own immediate good to the good their tax brings to their life through the society. you support some cunt who wnats to stop someone elses right to what they like and one day you might find yourself on the end of it, because you're not using the missionary position, or because you have sex out of wedlock, or because you have sex for any reason other than to conceive a new child, even if married (I forget which philosopher supported that)

So unless we want brothels to be as common and as public as Tesco, there have to be some limits.
You agree with this Norse???!! Fuck, again, it's legal here, I'm not even sure how many brothels we have, but I know we have more than 30 subway sandwhich shops in my city... supply and demand, are we going to get rid of the gay bar and gay cafe' too, I mean omg I'd just die if they were common, why should gays get to be liberal and part of our society!!! madness lmao

Some people suggest that such things are acceptable in private but not in public, but this solution will not work. It is unrealistic to expect that we can accept such things in private but condemn them in public,
it is? I don't see any consensual heterosexual sex in public... we accept such things in private, but condemn them in public.

because allowing people to do these things in private results in the formation of interest groups that will then demand public acceptance. And if people get used to seeing such things in private, the shock of seeing them in public will wear off and they will cease to care.
omg, people might stop being offended by the word fuck if we say it often enough? quick, we better stop using it!!! fuck this shit is a load of oversensitive nosey prude bullshit.

a. For the underclass, it will produce a wasteland of broken homes, fatherless children, and mindless couplings. See Theodore Dalrymple's Life at the Bottom:
Poor people life off fast food. ban mcdonalds for the fatties own good! they're an eye sore! all good if they eat in private, but it doesn't stay private does it!!! See The Unitied States of America.

b. For everyone else, it will produce an emotionally cruel social order which provides superficial pleasures for the rich and the pretty at the expense of misery for everyone else. It will culturally and socially disenfranchise the old and push the young into premature maturity.
yea, I mean, that aint happening as we speak, is it... even under a lovely christian democrat government like the USA, they don't seem any more exempt from this premature maturity cruel social order crap...

c. It will cause young people to waste their 20's chasing short-term flings rather than getting married, and when they finally figure out that this is a recipe for unfulfilled lives and continual heartbreak, they'll be in their early 30's and half of them will not be able to establish stable households before female fertility declines.
omg, I'm officially scared straight, please stop, you don't need to show me pictures of hellfire and suffering, I'll be good!!! NOT ROOM 101 PLEASE NOOO

(fuck man, I was taking this seriously in the beginning but it's just getting too difficult to not have fun with it)

4. A sexual order whose central concept is "consenting adults" will by definition be very selfish towards persons who are not adults, i.e. children. The easy availability of extra-marital sex encourages divorce and makes the children of the partner's previous marriages or cohabitations into nuisances. It will result in a ruthlessly adult-centric social order in which children are degraded, ignored, and not raised properly.
yep, everyone wants kids, and everyone is so obsessed with sex that they wont even be able to manage a relationship and parenting as they could with a husband or wife... we're clearly doomed if the people are free.

6. Accepting the sexual revolution means conceding that traditional British culture was as stupid as Tony Blair thinks it is. It means admitting the left was correct. It means giving up one of the best cultural sticks we have to beat the liberal establishment with. And accepting polygamy means giving up one of the best politically-correct cultural sticks we have to beat Islam with.
oh fuck, I wish this one had been first so I had known it was a joke.
 
Imagine the kind of obese business men who drive SUVs around at unsafe high speed, own dogs that they let foul footpaths, cut down all the trees on their property and pave over their gardens; who go to whores when the mood takes them, snort cocaine and hate ecologist "tree huggers", and who would feel threatened by a political party that advocated these behaviours were killing the planet, fast reducing the quality of life for the people.
They'd say: let me carry on with my selfish behaviour! as they overtake another car around a blind bend, nearly having a heart attack from the stress of being stuck behind someone for five minutes.

I'm not into "morality", but "cause and effect". And some of us can think ahead.
 
This article sums up a lot of concerns regarding how much liberty should be allowed to people, if the result of that liberty is the ruination of society and the path to misery for everyone.

What do you all think of it? Is it right that people's fun should be spoiled by other people who warn us of the price to be paid for being irresponsible?

Personally, I have been won around to this way of thinking although I had not always realised that it really could matter as much as it does. No man is an island - and we all have to think about the cumulative effect of individual behaviour.


http://www.bnp.org.uk/articles/traditional_values.html


In the present, sex has become the prime obsession. It is now the sole purpose for life. It is just something for the sake of pleasure and no longer with the goal of having stable marriages, joining families and having children.


Not a bad idea to warn people about promiscuous sexual behaviour. Also, a good idea to teach people to look at sex from other points than just pleasure. I doubt, suddenly setting in programs restricting sexual behaviour will be too healthy for society. It will just make everyone even more neurotic about it by censoring it as something sinful when it is a natural instinct.
 
In the present, sex has become the prime obsession. It is now the sole purpose for life. It is just something for the sake of pleasure and no longer with the goal of having stable marriages, joining families and having children.


Not a bad idea to warn people about promiscuous sexual behaviour. Also, a good idea to teach people to look at sex from other points than just pleasure. I doubt, suddenly setting in programs restricting sexual behaviour will be too healthy for society. It will just make everyone even more neurotic about it by censoring it as something sinful when it is a natural instinct.

I agree with this assessment. Particularly the "warnings" about promiscuity and stronger emphasis on sex for something other than fleeting self-gratification.(particularly for young folks)
In America, our collective attitudes about sex are a stunningly unhealthy array of conflicting, contradictory and simply childish opinions of human intimacy. In many respects the social pendulum has swung from the preposterous neo-victorian prudishness of the 1950's, to the anything goes "world-as-porn-flick/girls-gone-wild" recklessness of today. Surely there are better ways to approach natural sexual urges than these silly extremes.

Although I am generally a rather conservative individual, I have always been fairly liberal about sex. However, I find the prevailing attitude about sex as MURAI noted(ie. for mindless pleasure only and a goal in and of itself)distressing on a variety of levels. While it may be very exciting for some to believe life actually can be like porn-films or hyper-sexed TV programs, it just doesn't work that way(at least for 95% of us). We have cheapened and animalized sex to the point where we no longer separate(or know the difference between)the enticingly erotic and the embarrassingly tawdry. A decade or two of the Howard Sterns and his ilk have much to do with this!

If centuries of up-tight Christian/puritanical foolishness had previously made sex theoretically dirty and taboo, the past four decades of liberal hyper-permissiveness have only served to make it legitimately dirty and mundane. Surely there must be a healthy middle-ground somewhere.
 
The healthy middle ground is most likely the way our people lived prior to Christianity. Then we had a culture that was natural to our kind, rather than something foreign imposed on us. And since then foreign influences have further changed our sexual practices. Most pornographers and those who promote this kind of sleaziness are not of our culture, people like Larry Flynt, Hugh Hefner, etc. If I say what culture they are from you'll all sigh "there she goes again!".

Other foreign influence comes from highly sexed immigrants from cultures which have only ever known promiscuousness throughout their evolution.

Should enough people from a promiscuous culture become immigrants to a culture in which men are used to taking their time to date a woman and find out about her as a person, it creates havoc. The two dating techniques are so incompatible that something has to give. And if you look at the changes happening around us, it certainly can be said that there is far less time spent investing in a bond before sex than used to be the tradition. It is likely that once a man observes the object of his passion being quickly seduced by the skilled techniques of a single-minded lothario with no intention of commitment, he feels either a competitive drive or else he feels depressed and loses confidence. The result of this has been that more people sleep around and that love has become far less important to people looking for a partner than the cheap thrill of shallow sex.
http://www.corrupt.org/transcendence/women/articles/promiscuity/
 
how is our current state any less natural than the way of our ancestors?

The more years lived in civilisation, with its increasing ability to protect the weak and for the stupidest to have the most offspring leads to degeneracy. Also domesticated animals are known to have mixed up or lost instincts leading them to behave in a very different way to their wild ancestors.
I'm surprised this needs to be said.

I have previously (last year) made comments about how much healthier native Africans are (genetically) compared to Europeans, comparing the wild boar to domesticated pigs for example. As far as I remember this was considered outrageously offensive, to those compared with the wild species!
[Note: Africans should only breed with Africans though].
 
So civilisation is unnatural?
You throw the term 'natural' around as an emotive piece with no real rational basis, imho...

So different cultures have had to rely on different traits to survive, big deal? Genetic health is only a partial indicator for survival, as could be very clearly seen in the case you state.
 
gun ownership
idiots being allowed to vote
bullying
religion
...lots of things have negative consequences, and these are all consensual (in so far as the bullying is only freedom of speech).


far as I know you do get in trouble with the law if you're HIV Pos. and don't tell your sexual partners.


beastiality? that's quite a jump, given that it isn't just to do with adults (but hey, the consensual adult argument aside, if we can put a bolt through a cows head, why can't we rip up a rabbits vagina?).
Prostitution is legal here, and I don't see why it shouldn't be.
Liberty does mean the right to things we don't like. 'omg two wives thats so wrong' is no different to 'omg did he just draw a cartoon of Muhammad?', appealing to personal distastes is just a cheap ploy to gain supporters, right up there with bribing tax cuts to get voters knowing people will always consider their own immediate good to the good their tax brings to their life through the society. you support some cunt who wnats to stop someone elses right to what they like and one day you might find yourself on the end of it, because you're not using the missionary position, or because you have sex out of wedlock, or because you have sex for any reason other than to conceive a new child, even if married (I forget which philosopher supported that)


You agree with this Norse???!! Fuck, again, it's legal here, I'm not even sure how many brothels we have, but I know we have more than 30 subway sandwhich shops in my city... supply and demand, are we going to get rid of the gay bar and gay cafe' too, I mean omg I'd just die if they were common, why should gays get to be liberal and part of our society!!! madness lmao


it is? I don't see any consensual heterosexual sex in public... we accept such things in private, but condemn them in public.


omg, people might stop being offended by the word fuck if we say it often enough? quick, we better stop using it!!! fuck this shit is a load of oversensitive nosey prude bullshit.


Poor people life off fast food. ban mcdonalds for the fatties own good! they're an eye sore! all good if they eat in private, but it doesn't stay private does it!!! See The Unitied States of America.


yea, I mean, that aint happening as we speak, is it... even under a lovely christian democrat government like the USA, they don't seem any more exempt from this premature maturity cruel social order crap...


omg, I'm officially scared straight, please stop, you don't need to show me pictures of hellfire and suffering, I'll be good!!! NOT ROOM 101 PLEASE NOOO

(fuck man, I was taking this seriously in the beginning but it's just getting too difficult to not have fun with it)


yep, everyone wants kids, and everyone is so obsessed with sex that they wont even be able to manage a relationship and parenting as they could with a husband or wife... we're clearly doomed if the people are free.


oh fuck, I wish this one had been first so I had known it was a joke.

+1
 
I have previously (last year) made comments about how much healthier native Africans are (genetically) compared to Europeans
Rome_Africa_now3.jpg
 
HAHAHAHA. you two with your arguments.

Anyways... I dont feel the state should really be in control of sex. Are we trying to create a perfect society like the nazis or what?

I feel that keeping people informed of what could happen from sex in the public educational system is good enough. What more can you really do.
 
What people do in the privacy of their bedroom is nothing to do with me, and I don't think should be anything to do with governments.
 
HAHAHAHA. you two with your arguments.

Anyways... I dont feel the state should really be in control of sex. Are we trying to create a perfect society like the nazis or what?

I feel that keeping people informed of what could happen from sex in the public educational system is good enough. What more can you really do.

+1
 
Before one can intelligently discuss sexual policy, one must dispell the great myth of our age. People often ask, "why can't we just say that anything consenting adults do is OK?" Well, it's not OK because it has a long list of negative consequences

There is a difference between arguing that something is OK or not and whether or not it should be legal. Should the government attempt to restrict sex among consenting adults? Also, there are many other practices with potentially harmful side effects that are not illegal, from the obvious such as the consumption of alcohol to the less obvious but dangerous mass ownership and operation of automobiles which harm the environment and cause thousands of deaths every year. If it is the state's role to step in and prevent any and all potentially harmful activities, there are endless opportunities for it to insert itself into out every day lives. Regardless of our views on sex, is this the society we want to live in?

1. Sexually-transmitted diseases are no joke. Thanks to them, the average life-expectancy of a gay man is now 40, compared to 71 for all men. Something like 20% of British women aged 25-30 are sterile because of STDs.

I've always thought it odd that statistics like this are used to illustrate the results of "permissiveness." Gay sex is hardly the most accepted of lifestyle choices. The argument could be made that STDs are more rampant among gays because society has shunned them and does not seek to properly educate or treat them. Perhaps if we were more accepting of homosexuals and gay sex, we would do a better job of preventing the sort of careless behaviors that lead to the spread of disease. Perhaps if we allowed gays to get married, they would be more interested in monogamy and less likely to have unsafe sex with multiple partners. But it is also worth noting that it is always gay men that are used to make this point; lesbians are in fact less likely to contract STDs than straight women. Perhaps women would be better off abandoning traditional values and doing away with men altogether.

2. Making "consenting adults" the standard means polygamy, bestiality, prostitution and God-knows-what-else must be accepted, in the long run. One cannot endorse an idea that leads logically to this conclusion and expect that conclusion not to be reached when lust, money, and liberalism will be straining to reach it. So unless we want brothels to be as common and as public as Tesco, there have to be some limits.

But there are limits and will continue to be limits. This is a rehash of the ages-old slippery slope argument. First we allow people to have sex outside of marriage, next thing you know it'll be OK to marry a horse or rape children. When you paint with that broad of a brush, it's no wonder people are so scared. All these arguments do is stir up irrational fears and reaffirm prejudices.
Also, it's only fair to point out regarding brothels that there is a lot to be said for legalization and regulation. It is a business that cannot and will never be eliminated. When you can help ensure that prostitutes are educated in safe sex practices and screened regularly for STDs, you help prevent many of the problems this article warns about.

Some people suggest that such things are acceptable in private but not in public, but this solution will not work. It is unrealistic to expect that we can accept such things in private but condemn them in public, because allowing people to do these things in private results in the formation of interest groups that will then demand public acceptance. And if people get used to seeing such things in private, the shock of seeing them in public will wear off and they will cease to care.

I've never been a fan of the idea that some things are OK so long as they are hidden but not OK when practiced openly. Either something is acceptable or it is not. In fact, most of your more accepting people tend to feel this way, in my experience. It is more common in fact for the sexually conservative, in an attempt to compromise, to say "OK... Do what you will in your own bedroom but I don't want to see it, hear about it, deal with it in any way. Do what you will but pretend that you're not doing it in your day to day life." So I'm not sure how this fits into any argument against sexual permissiveness.


3. Tolerating "anything between consenting adults" will not lead to a libertarian paradise, but:

a. For the underclass, it will produce a wasteland of broken homes, fatherless children, and mindless couplings.


What is meant by tolerance, exactly? Because to make these things illegal and charge with criminal acts anyone that has children out of wedlock or commits adultery seems to me to compound the problem - certainly it puts the children of these people at further disadvantage. If we're talking about tolerance at a personal level then we already do not have that - People are not generally OK with the idea of a husband cheating on his wife and having a child on the side. Of course, this hasn't prevented it from happening, either. As for the "fatherless children" idea, this goes back once again to the taboo nature of sexual discussion in places like Britain and the US. If we were open about sex, more people would be educated and - hopefully as a result - more responsible. There are no fatherless children coming from safe sex. It is my belief that the practice of unsafe sex is a result of ignorance and/or unhealthy attitudes towards sex. Those are things that spring from sexual repression, not from sexual permissiveness.

b. For everyone else, it will produce an emotionally cruel social order which provides superficial pleasures for the rich and the pretty at the expense of misery for everyone else. It will culturally and socially disenfranchise the old and push the young into premature maturity.


This is all highly subjective, of course. The author is projecting his or her own views on sex on to everyone else. Sexual freedom is not for everyone tantamount to emotional cruelty. It does not make everyone who is not rich or pretty miserable - trust me, I have known more than my share of poor and ugly people that have had plenty of sex and who quite enjoy it. The old are not universally disenfranchised - they have sex too, I promise. And I'm not sure what to make about the comments regarding the "young," because I'm not sure whether we're talking about young adults or children. If the latter, this is just another slippery slope argument, as previously addressed. Non-monogamous sex for adults does not automatically lead to sex with or abuse of children.

c. It will cause young people to waste their 20's chasing short-term flings rather than getting married, and when they finally figure out that this is a recipe for unfulfilled lives and continual heartbreak, they'll be in their early 30's and half of them will not be able to establish stable households before female fertility declines.


Again, this is highly subjective stuff. What is seen to some as wasting the 20's may be seen to others as enjoying the 20's. It is not unfulfilling to everyone; it is not heartbreaking to everyone. Many people will tell you that they are better people for having dated multiple partners before settling down with one person later on. They learned about themselves. They learned about relationships. They feel better prepared to make their partner happy over the long term. Sure, it's not for everyone, but then again, neither is monogamy. Not everyone feels at age 18 that they are ready to commit to one person for the rest of their lives. I do not see how society benefits from forcing this upon someone that does not want it. In fact, pressure to do just this tends to result in infidelity and fatherless children later on - the very problems we are seeking to prevent.
As for the fertility issue, it amazes me to no end how some will act as if the human race is about to go extinct because fewer people are getting married and/or having children in a few western countries. There are 7 BILLION people on a planet with dwindling resources. If anything, we'd be better off having fewer children. You want to worry about the downfall of civilization? Imagine what this planet is going to look like when we pass 10 billion people (sooner than you think, by the way,) and we run out of clean water, food, and fossil fuels. Many of us in the west don't realize there are already a lot of countries where the water supply has evaporated to the point where governments have had to establish strict limits on the amount of water permitted to each household. But we need more babies?

4. A sexual order whose central concept is "consenting adults" will by definition be very selfish towards persons who are not adults, i.e. children. The easy availability of extra-marital sex encourages divorce and makes the children of the partner's previous marriages or cohabitations into nuisances. It will result in a ruthlessly adult-centric social order in which children are degraded, ignored, and not raised properly.

In these modern, more sexually open times, one could argue that we care more about children than we ever have. When in history have children had more rights and more protections? I'm not sure whether there is a correlation between sex and child protection, but that seems to be the argument here and so I will argue that it's flawed in either case. And how does the availability of extra-marital sex encourage divorce? If my wife says to me that I am not allowed to sleep with other women, then extramarital sex is not available and so if I choose to indulge, we get divorced. If she tells me that she is OK with me having sex with other women then she will not divorce me should I choose to indulge. This argument disagrees with itself.

Why, by the way, does having some sex make us selfish? Why does it mean we must put our pleasures ahead of our children? I don't think the argument here is against sex. I think it is against a whole perceived modern, non-traditional, godless outlook on life. It's not the sex itself, but what the sex supposedly represents. Some people cannot perceive that a couple of consenting adults could have sex outside of marriage without being sinful heathens that care about nothing but their own selfish pleasures. This is an argument based on fear that a valued way of life is being eroded. Sex just happens to be the part of a larger whole most likely to grab everyone's attention and stir emotions. But it's not just about the sex.

5. Making "consenting adults" the rule undermines social cohesion by making everyone into a sexual competitor to everyone else. The most ordinary recreational or civic organizations will suffer and the whole tone of life poisoned. Furthermore, because this makes innocent flirting not so innocent, it actually produces a de-eroticized culture with the coldness of Dangerous Liaisons.

The author may see it this way, but most people that practice "free love" do not - in fact, they see it as the opposite. Some people think marriage is about competition. A man seeks out the most beautiful woman he can, a woman seeks out the richest male highest in the social order. What is more cold than that? Want social cohesiveness? Let everyone fuck each other. I'm not arguing either way here, just pointing out that there are conflicting views. The author is stating as fact some highly debatable points.

6. Accepting the sexual revolution means conceding that traditional British culture was as stupid as Tony Blair thinks it is. It means admitting the left was correct. It means giving up one of the best cultural sticks we have to beat the liberal establishment with. And accepting polygamy means giving up one of the best politically-correct cultural sticks we have to beat Islam with.

I told you. Fear. Fear is the key. Eroding tradition, losing to Islam, giving up ages-old power and control, etc. This is about so much more than sex. It is about the people that used to rule and how they were able to maintain control. That control is beginning to slip and so they'll use all manner of flawed and slippery slope arguments to convince you that we've got to go back to the old ways of doing things. "Give us our power back!" is what it amounts to. They are scared, not for your family or for social welfare as they proclaim, but for the sake of their own power and authority.

7. A certain sexual self-restraint has long been part of the culture of Britain and was, in my view, a source of national greatness as male sexual energy was channelled into other pursuits and female sexual energy into the family. Can it really be an accident that our zenith of national greatness coincided with Victorian sexual restraint, and that Rome's decline set in just about the time orgies became fashionable?

Yes, in fact. Yes it can. This is your typical confusion of correlation with causation. Anyone with even a middling knowledge of Roman history knows that it wasn't the orgies that did them in. Oh, and anyone with some semblance of what I consider ethics knows that conquering and exploiting half the world is not a sign of British "national greatness," either. This is your typical nostalgia for the good old days that were in fact not so good for the majority of people involved.


Basically, I think it's important for the reader to understand what this article is really driving at. It's not really even about sex; sex is a tool used to lure people into a larger world view. It is riddled with fallacies and shouldn't convince anyone of anything.

A few of the responses have indicated that there is a "healthy medium" we ought to reach between the old world views of sex and this supposed new culture of permissiveness. I would argue that it isn't so much a middle ground we should find but a rational ground. There are a lot of people out there that have unhealthy and destructive views of sex, and these are not only those that are repressed or threatened by sex but also those that enjoy it. We should be sure that we are safe, responsible, and honest with each other. We should treat others with respect, and take responsibility for our actions. We should educate rather than instill fear, and we should not automatically hate and distrust anyone with differing values. All of these things we can do whether we have sex with one person, one hundred people, or no one at all.