P2P TORRENTS AND THE EVIL THEY DO

Look if u wanna be a rich musician youre not going to play metal. its pretty simple

So that gives you the right to steal their work, right?

If they didn't want to make MONEY off of their music, they'd simply GIVE IT AWAY!! They'd have ALL of their music posted on some of the various FREE web sites as FREE downloads, and that would be the end of it!! There would be no record label involved, there would be no CD, it would simply be made available for free BY THE ARTIST.

The artist has chosen NOT to do this, so instead, people are STEALING their hard work. Case closed. Your rationalization of "well, they knew they wouldn't get rich doing this" is a pathetic excuse to justify the theft of THEIR music.

Someone working at McDonald's knows they aren't going to get rich doing that, either, but they sure as F*** expect to get paid for every hour they work, don't they? How is that different from your example?

Very simple. It isn't. Deal with it.

Craig
 
I still maintain that this is not the problem. Downloading in-and-of-itself is not a problem. I AGREE with the people who are saying that it CAN actually foster sales, by people discovering new bands/CDs.

The problem is that for many people (particularly the "25-and-under" crowd), illegal downloading has simply become "the way" to get new music. Many kids have THOUSANDS of MP3s, but have never bought a single song (I personally know several). It's not a way to sample. It's a way to get whatever you want without paying for it. (Side-note: Fundamentally, I think that this is what is causing the fall of American society, which has already begun (other countries to a varying extents): Getting what you want without working for it, and having no consequences for laziness or negative/illegal actions).

I think the RIAA's problem really isn't with downloading (when it's for "sampling" purposes). Otherwise, why would they possibly have agreed to Microsoft's "sharing" thing on the Zune, where you can "borrow" someone else's song for 3 listens, or the iTunes feature where other people can stream your music library and "try out" your songs?!?!?!

Clearly, they see the value of sharing music, to expose people to new stuff that they might want to buy. The problem is when the sharing is used to AVOID buying.

Craig

I agree with you that it is not a problem. The people making it a problem are the folks at the RIAA, who want to regulate the way people share files and try to scare the bejesus out of the rest of the folks by fining kids $250,000 for sharing music.

The kids you know who have thousands of mp3's would never have the money to purchase 1/10th of the music, I bet, so the record companies are not losing money due to that theft.

Are downloaders stealing music? You bet your ass they are. Are the record companies losing money because of downloading? I have yet to see independent, verifiable evidence of that. Until I do, I will continue to download, share, and burn music.

It is on the record companies to adapt (a new philosophy about downloads, or a new delivery system that reduces their "losses") or die. At one time we had a bunch of buggy whip manufacturers in this country--until the automobile arrived.

Music survived people copying songs they heard around the fire. It survived 8 track recorders. It survived cassettes, and it will survive cd burners and downloading.

It makes far more sense for efforts to be directed at making money a new way, if the record companies are so afraid of losing it to downloaders.
 
Now- if there is full on concrete proof that sharing mp3s is killing bands and indie labels, I'll apologize and retract my statements. However I've not seen this- just what ifs and maybes. If you can't prove that the music industry isn't being hurt- logically it's being helped ...

OK, I'll try to make this easy to follow.

Many people use P2P sites to AVOID paying for music. By downloading it illegally, they AVOID paying for a CD that the band might otherwise have sold. That's money lost for the band and label.

If enough people are doing this, it will become unprofitable for a band to even release CDs. Recording the music costs money, too, as does bandwidth in many cases, so if they aren't getting enough sales of digital downloads, then even just recording it is a money-losing proposition. So unless they're independently wealthy, they'll stop recording the music.

We'll be patiently waiting for your apology and retraction of your statements....<illegally-downloaded Jeopardy theme plays>....

Craig
 
I certainly don't believe that theory, as I've said all along, otherwise I wouldn't be participating (or more like, wasting my time) in this thread.

You've nailed it, Fiddler. You're wasting your time. It's become obvious to me that we're arguing with a couple of kids with nothing better to do than to endlessly argue their point, purely to either (a) try to piss people off, or (b) justify themselves in stealing music.

You've made your point beautifully, but they're refusing (or too dense?) to see it, or if they see it, they're refusing to acknowledge it. Sadly, that's not going to change.

I honestly hope that they're in bands, and that they release CDs, and that everyone tells them how much they're enjoying their music, even though they haven't actually sold any CDs. :heh:

Craig
 
The kids you know who have thousands of mp3's would never have the money to purchase 1/10th of the music, I bet, so the record companies are not losing money due to that theft.

Incorrect. You do have a valid point that these kids couldn't afford to purchase most of what they have. So, maybe the labels/bands are not losing AS MUCH money as they claim, but if the kids have 5000 songs, and they could have afforded to buy 500 of them (50 CDs, roughly), BUT DIDN'T BECAUSE THEY INSTEAD DOWNLOADED/STOLE IT, then the labels/bands DID lost money due to that theft. It was just 50 CDs instead of 500. Whatever the number, IT WAS STILL THEFT, and LOST MONEY. Multiply 50 CDs (that actually might have otherwise been bought) times the millions and millions of offenders, and you have an enormous impact on the industry.

See, here's the difference. If you actually buy what you can afford, and download the rest (what you can't afford), then the labels/bands have lost nothing, because even if P2P/downloading didn't exist, you still wouldn't have bought more 'cause you simply didn't have it to spend. The labels would get the same money, but you'd have more music to listen to (illegally, granted, but they didn't "lose sales" 'cause you were out of money, anyway). Still doesn't make it right, though.

The problem is that many people are simply downloading EVERYTHING and buying NOTHING. They could afford to buy at least SOME of what they have, but they aren't. THAT is why the industry and bands are hurting.

Craig
 
I thank you all for your interesting imput, arguments, and ideas. I would like to leave you all with a final thought here as I go back to work making some music and promoting music that has already been made.

Bands really only want to get their music out, Bands want the world to appreciate what they created, more times than not, it's not about making a lot of money, it's about recouping the costs incurred in making the music. And hey it would be nice to be paid for the time you took off work creating the music as well to feed yourself and your family.

The point was just that this has gotten to a point where this is not happening anymore, it's not just about downloading, the face of music has changed on many fronts and your right Zod, it's not going to go back but forward. So I'm out of here to figure what direction is best for our bands and my personal music in order to lower the costs of getting the music made and distributed.
It may be you see a lot more "digital only" releases in the future.

Rage on my metal friends!
:headbang:
 
So that gives you the right to steal their work, right?

If they didn't want to make MONEY off of their music, they'd simply GIVE IT AWAY!! They'd have ALL of their music posted on some of the various FREE web sites as FREE downloads, and that would be the end of it!! There would be no record label involved, there would be no CD, it would simply be made available for free BY THE ARTIST.

The artist has chosen NOT to do this, so instead, people are STEALING their hard work. Case closed. Your rationalization of "well, they knew they wouldn't get rich doing this" is a pathetic excuse to justify the theft of THEIR music.

Someone working at McDonald's knows they aren't going to get rich doing that, either, but they sure as F*** expect to get paid for every hour they work, don't they? How is that different from your example?

Very simple. It isn't. Deal with it.

Craig

yet again not justifying illegal downloading. I know its not legal and I havent said it should be or anything
 
It may be you see a lot more "digital only" releases in the future.

Which would suit me fine...l rarely purchase the tangible product anymore. I think a part of the issue that most tend to overlook is the fact that today's society is extremely mobile. We simply cannot be encumbered with 1000s of CDs. But, we want to take our music with us as we bounce from city to city...and between continents. Digital files and the relatively compact storage systems allow that.

Record companies & bands would like to keep their product in a tangible state. To them, it's easier to sell & market. But society has moved past the point where we must have a solid piece of this particular product in our hands to recognize value. Bands & companies have got to catch up to the market & get it to the customer in it's intangible state...the way it was meant to be.
 
My two cents before they get lost in the shuffle:

Because of this thread I talked with one of my friends yesterday at length about downloading and buying cds. He's really into underground rap not metal but his principles on buying cds are similar to mine, if on a smaller scale. I asked him how often he buys cds and he said "hardly ever but if I really like it I'll get it." I asked him why if he can get it for free. "Most of the cds I do buy are from underground artists that need the money. Plus rappers like that generally put alot more into their songs than popular "club rap" shit. These guys that aren't on MTV throwing money at the camera make cds that aren't just one hit song and then forty minutes of crap." I mentioned I buy cds cos I like to have the whole package, liner notes, art, etc. He said that really doesn't make him buy cds but he does enjoy reading the liner notes when he takes a dump.


The point I'm trying to make is that while downloading is rampant and un ending there are still people out there that do buy cds. I personally buy cds and not download cos damn, I remember when it was impossible to find melodic metal cds in stores. Now even the FYE at the super rich new mall here in San Antonio has Sonata Arctica, Arch Enemy, Iced Earth, Helloween, Masterplan, and Blind Guardian on their shelves. And these aren't just the new releases they have almost the entire discography by these bands. This music is not as hard to find as it used to be even six years ago. Even if you live in nowhere Rhode Island, you can still find a way such as online ordering that will get you your cds within a week.

If you just download, download, and download away without buying anything you're a bunk ass chode and you really don't like the music. You want background noise to listen to while you fag off doing whatever it is that you do instead of supporting artists.
 
Which would suit me fine...l rarely purchase the tangible product anymore. I think a part of the issue that most tend to overlook is the fact that today's society is extremely mobile. We simply cannot be encumbered with 1000s of CDs. But, we want to take our music with us as we bounce from city to city...and between continents. Digital files and the relatively compact storage systems allow that.

Record companies & bands would like to keep their product in a tangible state. To them, it's easier to sell & market. But society has moved past the point where we must have a solid piece of this particular product in our hands to recognize value. Bands & companies have got to catch up to the market & get it to the customer in it's intangible state...the way it was meant to be.


I own somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,500+ CDs. They take up two walls in my home office.

Yet, my music is extremely "mobile" because I also own four iPods onto which I've ripped some of my favorite bands and genres.

I would not like digital download-only music for at least three reasons:

1. I haven't noticed that the price of digital downloads is significantly less than the tangible items. A buck or two, maybe. But I've always thought digital-only downloads were just another way major labels stick it to consumers. It costs them very little to offer digital-only downloads, yet they charge about the same price. Seems unfair to me.

2. I love holding artwork in my hands. I grew up in the '70s when albums were extravaganzas. Some, like Pink Floyd's Dark Side, Elton John's Captain Fantastic or Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, Yes' Yessongs, Uriah Heep's Live 1973, or Grand Funk's Shinin' On, were a joy to behold. Huge booklets, die-cuts, lyrics, stickers, photos -- the whole nine yards. All for about $4-$6. Music in the '70s was incredible on many levels. A bunch of ones and zeros can't give me the same feeling as paging through a CD booklet. For me, a band's creative output isn't just its music. It's its artwork, its logo, its liner notes, its lyric. Case in point: Iced Earth. Jon's releases relive the glory days of albums in the '70s. His releases are a feast for the eyes as well as the ears. And look at Lance's Nightmare releases. First-rate all the way. Or Ken's Sensory releases. Very well done. Their booklets employ the talents of some of the world's best artists. I would feel cheated if all I had after I plunked down $14.99 was 9-10 mp3s on my hard drive -- songs that could disappear like a puff of smoke if my hard drive crashed.

3. iTunes downloads are coded in such a way that the songs can only be played on a specified number of computers. Digital downloads can be restricted in ways that make me uncomfortable. Like, why should iTunes care where I play my music? And what other restrictions will labels impose on their download-only audiences?

Ascension, I disagree with your assertion that everyone wants digital-only music. I think some do. I think many might. But I know all don't. Many young people -- allegedly the most mobile of all demo groups -- like the artwork, lyrics, and entire experience of buying albums just as much as I do. One thing I know they like -- because I've read the research on them -- is choices. They don't like to be told what to do. They like to make their own decisions. So I don't think anyone -- except, perhaps, for you -- would like it if all choices were removed and all we had left was a digital download. Music wouldn't be the same. Distributors would be out of business. Independent music stores would be out of business. And CD cover artists wouldn't have their art in the hands of fans all over the world.

I hope it doesn't come to that. But if it's a choice between no music or digital downloads, I'll pick digital downloads every time.
 
Re AndTimeBegan's "novel" ideas on engaging in copyright infringement:

Technically, so does Google for providing links to websites like The Pirate Bay... Even worse- technically so do YOU for even publicly acknowledging The Pirate Bay in the first place.

No, Google doesn't, not even "technically". And neither do we. Not even close. See below.

How is my logic wrong? In fact this was the very defense OiNK made in his interview with MTV.com when his site got shut down. All charges (copyright infringement, conspiracy to commit fraud) were dropped. If these torrent sites "engage in copyright infringement," so does anyone else who links people to them since the site admins themselves do not post the torrents but rather the users themselves. All I'm saying is that research is your friend!

Please provide a link detailing charges against Oink being dropped. I can't find that. If true, I highly doubt it's because the "I only provided links" argument worked - there's some other reason for it.

Copyright infringement charges againt a setup like Oink would be based on either vicarious liability or contributory infringement (not direct infringement, since they didn't have the files on their servers).

Vicarious liability requires:
1. control over the users
2. a direct financial benefit

Contributory infringement requires:
1. knowledge of the infringing activity
2. a material contribution

This is what has tripped up the file-sharing sites in the past. I'm sure (but not being privy to all the details of the case against them) that Oink's setup of "get request for specific infringing material from user --> direct user to location - via link - of specific infringing material" would be enough to do them in legally. Here's the key: we're talking specific acts of infringement i.e. downloading song X.

The problem with your ridiculous analogy to Google links or "talking about" Pirate Bay is that those activities aren't even remotely integral (AKA material contribution) in someone downloading a specific piece of infringing material. The law does not cast a ridiculously-wide net that gathers in everyone who ever spoke to the infringer. It casts a very narrow net that captures the true infringers: those that steal and those that setup systems specifically designed in an attempt to work around the laws.

Since you acknowledge that research is your friend, you might want to crack open a Copyright 101 book, since you clearly lack even basic knowledge of the subject (yeah, I'm thinking of "not stealing unless hardcopy is taken" too). Or else stop speaking authoritatively about things you know nothing about. That's just a tip from me if you want to stop looking like a fool, which is how you look to a lot of the readers of this thread.
 
This post is running in circles. Let's face it, these "illegal sites" are the new millenium equivilant to me coming to your house and having you burn me a copy of any cd in your collection. Yes computers are the cause for the mass "stealing" but I remember buying a cassette and taping it for a friend and never getting shit for it. The digital era is responsible for this and we all know damn well IT WILL NEVER STOP. I am not condoning it but these posts do nothing but actually glorify it. I'm sure most people do not feel guilty, rather they feel, "damn, let me surf the net and get some free tunes!!!". We all hide behind our computers and I'm sure everyone here is guilty of a free "illegal" download or 2. Is it ok for me to email you a full cd at mine and yours agreement? stealing is hacking into someones comptuer and taking files. If I agree for you to take a folder from my PC it's condoned, not stealing. Once again, let's clarify the meaning of "ILLEGAL DOWNLOADS" here.:puke:
 
I have been reading and following this thread from start to finish, which hasn't been all that easy, because as someone stated before - it's like trying to walked through a crowded room while everyone is yelling at each other. That said, here's a few of my thoughts and reactions:

It may be you see a lot more "digital only" releases in the future.
I really hope this is not the case. For me, and many others I know, digital releases = :puke:
Which would suit me fine...l rarely purchase the tangible product anymore. I think a part of the issue that most tend to overlook is the fact that today's society is extremely mobile. We simply cannot be encumbered with 1000s of CDs. But, we want to take our music with us as we bounce from city to city...and between continents. Digital files and the relatively compact storage systems allow that.
It might suit you fine, but others like me would be pretty upset. I don't download anything. Period. I don't feel burdened (or encumbered as you say) by the hundreds of CDs I have on my shelf at home. My boyfriend doesn't feel burdened by the thousands of CDs he has on his shelves. And neither he nor I ever feel burdened at ProgPower or Flight of the Valkyries where we purchased several hundreds of dollars of tangible CDs from the vendors and had to hold onto them all night, carry them back to my hotel, or transport them home. We like having a physical product and believe it or not, others do too.

There's nothing wrong with the fact that you like your media in a digital format, but please don't think you can speak for all of society on this topic. There have already been a dozen or more people on this forum who have admitted they prefer a physical product, and I would guarantee that there are more folks like us out there in the world.
Record companies & bands would like to keep their product in a tangible state. To them, it's easier to sell & market. But society has moved past the point where we must have a solid piece of this particular product in our hands to recognize value. Bands & companies have got to catch up to the market & get it to the customer in it's intangible state...the way it was meant to be.
And I would like record companies & bands to keep their product in a tangible state as well. Not everyone has moved past that point. (Someone will probably have to drag me there kicking and screaming one day.) Plenty of people still want to read the newspaper in print, purchase magazines to hold the glossy pages while they read articles (or to rip out the posters and wallpaper their rooms with them), and hold a CD Case/Book in their hands while they listen to it on their stereo. It's not to say that media in other forms does not have value or that it is a bad ides, just that a good amount of people still prefer to hold something tangible in their hands. It is that way for me (and many others I know) particularly with CDs. I want to look through my shelves of CDs, choose one or three or five to listen to, hold the case in my hands, open it, look through the liner notes and at the artwork - not just click a button on my computer or my iPod (which I don't even own at this point).

The market wasn't "meant to be" intangible. If it was "meant to be" that way than it would have been that way from the very beginning. It's great that new outlets have been created for media, but that doesn't mean that every form that came before the current has to die. Some have, but some still exists, and I hope that some, like CDs and LPs, continue exist.

If this is the way things go, than so be it, but labels, distributors and bands will still be alienating a portion of their fans/buying population by switching to a completely digital format. Those, like me, who prefer the hard copy, tangible product, will be forced to find other venues to get it - be it "bootleg" (for lack of a better term) studio releases or otherwise. The thought of those venues make me unhappy just thinking about it, because that means I'll probably be supporting the bands I love a lot less, at least in the form of music media (certainly not in the form of concert tickets, t-shirts and other merchandise).

But why alienate part of your current purchasing audience to cater to those that are downloading (stealing, not sampling) you stuff in the first place? :loco: I understand that the market is changing, but that doesn't mean give in to the least supportive denominator. I just don't see how this helps.

I think instead of limiting themselves, what bands and labels need to do is, as some one mentioned before I believe, find as many creative outlets as possible to reach their audiences - CDs, MP3s, T-shirts, posters, Myspace, contests, magazines, comic books, festivals, etc.

As much as I don't like Ozzfest, the fact that it was free this year was pretty revolutionary. I see the music industry heading more in that direction. I'm not saying everything should be free, and I'm not saying it shouldn't be regulated if it is free, but I'm saying that artist may have to give a little on that end of the argument and recognize that concepts like that will expose them to a wider market because anyone can afford to check out something free.

OK, I think I've said enough off the top of my head while here at work. I need to go back a read through this thread a little more and collect my thoughts a bit to come back with a few better suggestions than that (because I was certainly thinking of some other ones when I was reading through what everyone else wrote over the past few days). I just really felt I need to voice my stance on the whole, end of tangible media, conversion to a completly digital age bit. I don't think it will happen and I hope (for the sake of avid fans/supporters/music collectors like me) it won't. :headbang:
 
I hope it doesn't come to that. But if it's a choice between no music or digital downloads, I'll pick digital downloads every time.

Shit, I'll pick no more music over going digital.

But there is still a market for vinyl. Shit, some bands release vinyl exclusively. If that's the case, then I don't think I have to worry about my preferred format, the CD, becoming a thing of the past. Out of mainstream consciousness maybe, but who cares about that?

I have no use for digital music or "sampling" an entire album. If I end up wasting some money on nappy CDs, big deal. It's only money. It's not important to me. If it was I'd be a little better off than living in a school dorm on integration assistance.

And I like having an actual physical library of albums. And books. And DVDs. Anyone that comes into my room discovers much about me without my needing to say a word.

The industry can completely collapse and I'll still be paying for as many albums as I can afford at the time, doing entirely without the rest, and let the thieves do what they will.

The problem will never be solved as long if it's only music industry businessmen bitching about it. Musicians fear the Lars Ulrich backlash, but they need to be willing to look people in the eye and say, "You're a thief, fuck you, I don't care if you just bought a shirt, you stole this other thing from me," when someone tells them they downloaded an album. People who actually buy their albums need to get in the faces of their friends who don't and make it an issue and be willing to drop friends because of it. That's when attitudes change. But this won't ever happen, and so here we are.
 
Is it ok for me to email you a full cd at mine and yours agreement? stealing is hacking into someones comptuer and taking files. If I agree for you to take a folder from my PC it's condoned, not stealing. Once again, let's clarify the meaning of "ILLEGAL DOWNLOADS" here.:puke:

Illegal means not in accordance with the law. The scenario you've just laid out is not in accordance with the law. You seem to think that when you own a hard copy of something you also own the illectually property rights to it. You don't. You and I can make an agreement to transfer your hard copy, because you own it. But we cannot legally make an agreement to create copies - you don't legally own that right. The copyright holder does.

Yes breaking into your PC and taking is stealing - from YOU. We're talking about stealing from the intellectual rights property holder, not stealing from you.

It's the COPYING that's illegal. You may not like that, but that's copyright law and how it has worked for hundreds of years.
 
Illegal means not in accordance with the law. The scenario you've just laid out is not in accordance with the law. You seem to think that when you own a hard copy of something you also own the illectually property rights to it. You don't. You and I can make an agreement to transfer your hard copy, because you own it. But we cannot legally make an agreement to create copies - you don't legally own that right. The copyright holder does.

Yes breaking into your PC and taking is stealing - from YOU. We're talking about stealing from the intellectual rights property holder, not stealing from you.

It's the COPYING that's illegal. You may not like that, but that's copyright law and how it has worked for hundreds of years.

***This is true, HOWEVER, the term "illegal" is a complete can of worms and is a moral call as well as by the law. As i said, I do not argue that the bands/artists suffer from this, BUT, it's impossible to stop it, unfortunately. If you really want to get into "LAWS", we can post about running red lights and stop signs too, I don't mean to be a wide ass and I know this is a music forum but you brought up LAW.. As much as I respect MEGALOUD for this post, I guarantee we will see this same post from another label next year and the year after that. Bands/artists need to focus on how to market themselves bt playing gigs and selling T-shirts and so on. Beating a dead horse now guys, we all know it upsets labels that people download their releases, it's understandable and frustrating, but GET OVER IT, this forum sees this P2P rant a few times a year and nothing has changed, and nothing will. It only get's easier to get free music and movies.
 
People who actually buy their albums need to get in the faces of their friends who don't and make it an issue and be willing to drop friends because of it. That's when attitudes change. But this won't ever happen, and so here we are.
Yeah, Nick and I got really sick of one friend (and I use that term loosely now since we rarely talk to the guy) who nearly every time one of us would mention a band name or album name (particularly in the case of things that hadn't even been released in the states or at all yet) he would say "Yeah, I've got that album." You would think the guy had an entire library of CDs or LPs, but when you went to his home you'd see only about 50-100 CDs on his shelf. That's because all the "albums" he supposedly had were all on his computer ... and about 90% (maybe more) of them were illegally downloaded. :zombie: That's not owning or having an album, that's stealing a media file. People like that just irritate the shit out of me, especially when they act like they are a bigger music fan than you are, but it's obvious that they don't do shit to support the artists that they claim to care so much about.

** takes and deep breath and steps off soapbox **
 
Yeah, Nick and I got really sick of one friend (and I use that term loosely now since we rarely talk to the guy) who nearly every time one of us would mention a band name or album name (particularly in the case of things that hadn't even been released in the states or at all yet) he would say "Yeah, I've got that album." You would think the guy had an entire library of CDs or LPs, but when you went to his home you'd see only about 50-100 CDs on his shelf. That's because all the "albums" he supposedly had were all on his computer ... and about 90% (maybe more) of them were illegally downloaded. :zombie: That's not owning or having an album, that's stealing a media file. People like that just irritate the shit out of me, especially when they act like they are a bigger music fan than you are, but it's obvious that they don't do shit to support the artists that they claim to care so much about.

** takes and deep breath and steps off soapbox **

Now thats ridiculous, I support a band every way I can but buying CDs.
 
...
And I like having an actual physical library of albums. And books. And DVDs. Anyone that comes into my room discovers much about me without my needing to say a word....

I loved that last line. It's true. I can tell a lot about someone based on what I see in his/her home. I'm sure others can tell the same about me based on what's in mine -- books, DVDs, CDs up the ying-yang.

It's a badge of honor for me that someone could tell I'm a foaming-at-the-mouth music and metal freak just by walking into my office.


It might suit you fine, but others like me would be pretty upset. I don't download anything. Period. I don't feel burdened (or encumbered as you say) by the hundreds of CDs I have on my shelf at home. My boyfriend doesn't feel burdened by the thousands of CDs he has on his shelves. And neither he nor I ever feel burdened at ProgPower or Flight of the Valkyries where we purchased several hundreds of dollars of tangible CDs from the vendors and had to hold onto them all night, carry them back to my hotel, or transport them home. We like having a physical product and believe it or not, others do too.

+1

Very well put BRMH. I think it's cool to walk away from ProgPower "burdened" by CDs I picked up from the vendors. I stack them up, look at them, select them one by one when I listen to them.

I've only downloaded (legally) 4-5 albums in my life. There's something strange about those albums, though. It seems like I don't really own them. Why? Because I can't feel them, hold them in my hands. They're invisible; therefore, they seem unreal.

Bill