RANT: Bands and songs

ahjteam

Anssi Tenhunen
I just need to let this out... Totally pissed right now. There is no real end to this, I almost could write a book about this.

I was talking with this one guy in the bar about few months ago and we talked about why his band doesn't get a record deal. As you can guess, pointless rambling between two drunken guys. But I got a really big flashback about this when I was listening to the clips we recorded in the studio with this band in the summer. When I listened to the results, I know I got a decent sounding record, but I wasn't totally satisfied, because I know that I could've gotten better results if they were better as musicians or the songs were better (they had constant changes in tempo and timesignature etc).

In the end it was pretty much just like recording and polishing a turd. Okay, art is art etc, but the point was that the band wanted to get a record deal. I gave it a serious thought and I came to a conclusion that the band will most like won't get a deal with this record and they will suck live if they perform this material. Not badly, but after witnessing and mixing a few of their gigs I would say that they are not even at semi-professional level.

After working tightly in the live venues with real professional musicians (talking about like +30 years musicianship behind them), I have noticed that the main difference between amateurs and professionals is that the amateurs make or choose too hard songs for themselves to perform. Their skills are just below par compared to the skills required by the music (I would count Lars Ulrich in this category too). Let me demonstrate this with a simple picture:

what_separates_amateurs_from_professionals.png


How difficult the song is or what the actual skill level of the player is, is irrelevant, but this is the reason why the bands spent so fucking much time in the eighties in the studio making records; The musicians skill level wasn't enough for the songs and there was no beatdetective or autotune to save your ass from bad musicianship and editing was a real pain in the ass to do.

Let's take the Finnish lovemetal band HIM as the example. The drummer Mika "Kaasu" Karppinen started playing drums has played actively atleast since 1990 in bands, including a grindcoreband called To Separate the Flesh from the Bones with blastbeats etc:



But what does he play in HIM? Basic beat.



The point is that professionals make it sound like they know their shit by playing songs that are clearly below their skill level and this guarantees that they can deliver and nail their songmaterial flawlessly in one take or atleast very near that. For example I heard from the producer Hiili Hiilesmaa that he didn't use beatdetective on the HIM records for the drums because Kaasu knows his thing. Making easier music is the most easiest way to make a guarantee that you won't fuck up when you need to perform it.

But the young dudes coming to the studio for the first few times don't understand that the if the band wants a record deal and wants to attract major audience, they usually need to be able to perform their songs live on the same level as they sound on the record.

And the other thing that they don't understand 98% of "the normal people" are really unmusical, are unable to play any instrument, only focus to the vocals (this is a fact, I read the scientific study about it somewhere but can't find it atm, sorry) and usually get really confused unless the beat is constant and in 4/4 timesignature.

Metalmusic is a real exception in the bunch because it's not usually targeted forward the major audience because it is the extreme form of music because in general it is really hard because you combine speed with complex songs and making the songs easier to play is really hard because then they kinda loose the feel of the genre.

But there is something for you to think... I'll head to bed now.
 
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I certainly understand your point, I think it does apply to a lot of bands who are trying to be successful but just can't make it. I do think, though, that there are various motivations for playing music. Not everyone is out to be rich and famous, and play arenas every night. For a lot of people, myself included, it's just about having fun, drinking some bears with some friends, and playing music for the hell of it. If a song with random 6 and 7/8 bars gets written, well then so be it I guess..

Still, valid points, I probably will never get famous :lol:
 
We've recorded plenty of kiddie deathcore bands that fall straight into this trap. They're trying to play material that is years beyond their skill level. i've heard drummers that can't even play a 4 to the floor Phill Rudd beat solidly attempting blasts and complex double kick fills. Its almost like audial colour blindness.
 
You make a great point, great songs pop, rock and even a lot of metal songs are really simple, I think to be professional as you say is to have the ability to play complex material but to tone it down to its fundamentals so that people can really enjoy it. A great lead melody is a simple one that sticks in your head, not a one thousand note per minute nightmare.

To me, technical ability is all fine and dandy, but to create a catchy melody that you can get people going along with takes real skill and ability.

Most successful pop and rock bands are great at this, ACDC made a killing playing three chord rock and bands like Paramore write catchy songs that you can learn in five minutes. With their production aspect taking simple ideas and building them up to create a fuller bigger picture.

Metalmusic is a real exception in the bunch because it's not usually targeted forward the major audience because it is the extreme form of music because in general it is really hard because you combine speed with complex songs and making the songs easier to play is really hard because then they kinda loose the feel of the genre.

I think metal bands can get away with technicality because most of their core fanbase, and this is a generalisation I will say that outright, but you go to a metal gig and you can guarantee at least 90% of the audience plays an instrument, so they have, or they think they should have, a better appreciation for the complexities of this type of music. Either that or they're inclined towards angst and anger. :lol:

So I think its not really that players write songs that they know are below their skill level, on the contrary I think bands like HIM are pushing their skill levels to the limit in the composition of a piece, its just that they value musicianship over technical ability, and thats something a lot of amateur bands could learn.
 
For a lot of people, myself included, it's just about having fun, drinking some bears with some friends...

Wee hee hee, that brought some lulz :lol:

Anyway, yeah, people definitely need to learn to recognize (and accept) their technical limits, at least until they've practiced hard enough to increase them! (though I often write licks I can't play immediately as a way to challenge myself, but I've also had to scrap a couple because I just got too frustrated :D)
 
Isn't a big part of being a kid and getting better about playing way over your head though? I actually 100% agree with the thesis but I also feel like this is mostly a pitfall for the <20 crowd. Pretty much everyone I know did this when they were young. Especially the metal heads.
I think you either get better/smarter/more musical or quit around the time you are no longer living on your parents dime. Either that or you play fusion.
 
Isn't a big part of being a kid and getting better about playing way over your head though? I actually 100% agree with the thesis but I also feel like this is mostly a pitfall for the <20 crowd. Pretty much everyone I know did this when they were young. Especially the metal heads.
I think you either get better/smarter/more musical or quit around the time you are no longer living on your parents dime. Either that or you play fusion.

if you play above your skill level if your a kid that's fine, if your a grown man, you would be Alexi Laiho. Its good to play and write stuff that is over your head, but practice it over and over again until its under your skill before you play perform it in front of people.

Yeah the problem is with the younger crowd and most of them will quit playing music when they get older, then you have the 20+ (usually 30-40+/mid-life crisis) group that decided to play and instrument and start a band, they play above their skill and have overpriced gear that they don't know how to use
 
if you play above your skill level if your a kid that's fine, if your a grown man, you would be Alexi Laiho. Its good to play and write stuff that is over your head, but practice it over and over again until its under your skill before you play perform it in front of people.

Yeah the problem is with the younger crowd and most of them will quit playing music when they get older, then you have the 20+ (usually 30-40+/mid-life crisis) group that decided to play and instrument and start a band, they play above their skill and have overpriced gear that they don't know how to use
It's true I wasn't really thinking about the COB or dragonforce angle on this.
I'm pretty insulated from the PRS-investment banker crowd as well.
 
Wee hee hee, that brought some lulz :lol:

Anyway, yeah, people definitely need to learn to recognize (and accept) their technical limits, at least until they've practiced hard enough to increase them! (though I often write licks I can't play immediately as a way to challenge myself, but I've also had to scrap a couple because I just got too frustrated :D)

I thought I was the only one.. That's how I get better aswell, hum something out in my head that's ridiculously hard, then transcribe it to guitar.
 
Nah dude, I remember reading an interview with Petrucci a few years ago where he said the same thing, which kinda planted the idea in my head! (though I guess it's pretty common, especially for those who do most/all of their writing in GP or equivalent)
 
i've heard drummers that can't even play a 4 to the floor Phill Rudd beat solidly attempting blasts and complex double kick fills

I actually had to play Back in Black on drums today at the university for a course we learn how to use the more advanced than basic protools features like beatdetective, sample replacement, autotune etc. I really have to say that eventho I had never played the song ever before, I was really surprised how hard that song is to play in the end. But the main reason was that I just plain sucked :oops:
 
I think that even if your band is really technically skilled and can play your songs flawlessly, there's some things that just aren't going to sound good live, especially if you're an opener with no soundcheck or something. When I'm writing songs, I try to be conscious of what will translate well into a live setting and be heard by the audience.
 
Everybody should play songs that they really can. Playing skill must be a bit over the song difficulty.

Nowadays computers do most of the work on studio and clean all the shit coming from players, just take a look at this forum about tricks to sound tighter copying paste almost everynote and tips like that... what for? then you will never be able to play that good on stage!
The old spirit of R´n´R dying. Lemmy is sad. :cry:


Doing more complex song won't make you a better musician.

I know people who used to play good metal stuff and now they wear coloured glasess and they play fucking horrible ultraprog/pop/rock with fucking weird melodies and scales and they think they are smart, more clever and better musicians than the rest. Fuck them.
 

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