36 Crazyfists quick cover (Trilian, Superior 2, ENGL SE 6L6, Torpedo VB-101)

[Djabthrash]

Sooooooo, i have been the proud owner of Trilian (bass VSTi) and Superior Drummer 2 for a week now, started to use it (barely for now), and found out i could have my Guitar Pro MIDI scores played by Trilian and S2, so i decided to give a try at that 36 Crazyfists song i always jam with, Bloodwork.

For the "crunchy/twangy" guitar sound on the intro and verse i just rolled back my EMG81 volume pot halfway.
For the clean sound in the middle i rolled back the EMG81 tone pot halfway (for a softer/rounder/smoother sound) and used the Clean Channel (channel 1) on my amp, along with some reverb.

Don't mind the playing, it is totally sloppy, i just wanted to do a tone test :

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6262

I'm not sure the cab/mic/miking choice i used (Marshall 4x12 V30 Slash Sig closed / Condenser Neumann U87) was the wisest for this mix, not to mention i hardly tweaked Trilian/S2 for this time (considering i've just started using it a couple of days ago).

Anyway... i guess it sounds decent but needs some improvements here and there, and i'd like to hear what you think.

EDIT :

Made some changes to the mix i posted yesterday (direct link : http://www.netmusicians.org/?section=id&value=6262) :

* raised the overall volume (it was way too quiet)
* raised the bass volume a tad, and boosted it a tad more at 105Hz
* dropped the rythm guitars a bit
* compressed the clean guitar in the middle, added some flanger to it, and dropped its volume also

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6269

Also i remiked the rythm guitars through other cab/mic/miking setups :

- Mesa Boogie Rectifier Standard 4x12 (closed back) with V30's / Royer 121 (ribbon) : http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6271
- ENGL Pro 4x12 with Celestion V30 speakers / BeyerDynamic M160N (ribbon) : http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6273
- VHT deliverance 2x12 with Eminence P50E speakers / Royer 121 (ribbon) : http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6274

EDIT 2 :

Made some changes to the mix i posted last week :

* tweaked the drums a lot (changed the EQ inserts for snare, kick and OH/HH, balanced the levels out, didnt tweak the toms yet though)
* balanced the mix levels out

I think it sounds better (kick and snare are tighter and have more definition, the overall mix has more high end) (but a tad quieter though) but still needs some improvement (further drums (incl. toms) EQ-ing, and also bass EQ-ing), you guys tell me.

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6302 (with ENGL Pro 4x12 with Celestion V30 speakers / BeyerDynamic M160N (ribbon))
http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6303 (with Mesa Boogie Rectifier Standard 4x12 (closed back) with V30's / Royer 121 (ribbon))

EDIT 3 (2010-04-23) :

Made some changes to the mix i posted on 2010-03-23 (direct link : http://www.netmusicians.org/?section=id&value=6302) :

* brought the kick up a tad
* lowered the snare volume
* balanced the mix levels out

I think it sounds better (drums and overall mix are more balanced volume-wise) but still needs some improvement (further drums (incl. toms) EQ-ing, and also bass EQ-ing (maybe a tad less pick noise treble/presence should be wise), you tell me :

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6600 (with ENGL Pro 4x12 with Celestion V30 speakers / BeyerDynamic M160N (ribbon))

Also remiked through my go-to cab/mic/miking/post-EQ setups :

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6601 (with ENGL Pro 4x12 with Celestion V30 speakers / Shure SM57 (dynamic))

Sounds more dynamic/percussive/punchy/edgy and mix-ready/balanced than the BeyerDynamic M160N IMO, but i am not a huge fan of the kinda fizzy character and tone, especially for ringing open chords.

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6602 (with ENGL Pro 4x12 with Celestion V30 speakers / Blue Dragonfly (condenser))

This is my fav mic so far, not as good for guitar tones mix-readiness as the SM57, but still good and i like the character and tone better (sounds more like my tone, and i love the growl).

EDIT 4 (2010-11-09) :

This mix is a bit old but quite an improvement compared to the last one posted here IMO, let me know what you guys think :

!!! watch out, this latest mix is way louder than the older ones !!!

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=8632

From what i remember i raised the drums velocities and it made a huge difference. I also improved the drums EQ-ing, and the snare and roomverb also. I worked on the bass tone and guitar tone some more also.

I know it still needs a lot of work (especially the drums (toms need more processing, and i have to deal better with roomverb and ambiance). I'll get back to work on it soon and post an improved mix here) but i could use some pointers from you guys since i'm gonna get back to work on this mix to get a nice mixing template for my own project.

EDIT 5 (2010-11-21) :

i worked a bit more on the mix, on the drums exclusively actually.

I fixed the toms (they had no lowcut so the boom would provoke some unwanted peaks) first and raised the overall drums volume a bit in the mix.

Then i worked on my snarereverb which i considered cool but was made in a somewhat nonsensical way, so i wanted to do it more by the books and see if it would sound better in the end. Alongside to that snareverb thing, i added a compressed room ambience mic track, to glue the drums together and fatten them.

Here's the first mix with the toms fixed :

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15008135/36C...01115_Cond.mp3

Here's the new mix with the snareverb fixed and the comproom thing added :

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15008135/36C...oomComp).mp3

You guys tell me if it sounds any better or if i should cancel all those changes.

My personal feeling is that it glued the drums together (they were too separated at first IMO), but it didn't fatten them much if anything, and maybe caused some muddiness in the lows/low-mids region. But i'm thinking that maybe this is part of the "glueing" thing, i.e. if you have too much definition all the elements sound separated, and if you want more glue you need to sacrifice a bit of that definition... What do you guys think ?
Also, the new mix may have emphasized an already existing annoying thing on the first mix, which was that the snare decay sounded a bit annoying during the "soft" part in the middle that has no heavy guitars.
I don't know if i'm the only one to notice it or if it can sound really distracting to other people... you tell me.

So please tell me if the new version is any better, what went wrong, what went bad, if i should go back to the first version, and what is there to fix in my mix anyway (regardless of the version 1 vs version 2 thing).

DISCLAIMER : those clips are not mastered, sorry about that.

EDIT 6 (2011-03-20) :

Same clip as the one i uploaded a couple of months ago (direct link : http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=8632), except that i did some premastering for more volume and punch, improved the drums (velocities, toms EQ, ambience, snare verb...) and also added some delay on the clean guitar parts.

You guys let me know what you think.

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=10127

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15008135/36CFmix_all/TestS2&Trilian&Grs_36CF_20110320_v1.mp3

 

[Nuno Filipe]

It´s not bad but to nail better the guitar tone you have to work more the rhythm section. The crazyfists mix has much more clarity and punch.

 

[Djabthrash]

It´s not bad but to nail better the guitar tone you have to work more the rhythm section. The crazyfists mix has much more clarity and punch.

Thanks for the feedback. I need to be sure of something though : when you mean "to work more on the rythm section", you mean working on the drums and bass processing right ?

For now i'd say it's barely mixed/tweaked so i expected that kind of comment. If it's not bad sounding at this stage it's cool then.
Any pointers on how to get more clarity and punch regarding my drums/bass ? I don't quite know where to start. I guess some EQ cuts here and there would help to have everything fit in the mix (easier to say than to do ).

 

[Djabthrash]

Just listened back to the original mix (36 crazyfists)... i don't want necessarily to "copy" their tone in any way (first i'm not a badass producer so i can't make it, and then it's just pointless), but i got some pointers listening to it :

- i need to EQ my bass/drums way more, they sound too raw/fat for now (which makes sense ), i need to get something tighter and a more produced sound (cleaner/more scooped/tighter/thinner kick, same for the snare, more 100hz in the bass, and more kick/bass separation)
- the original guitar tone sounds like the tone i would get with my Torpedo Mesa 4x12 V30 (closed) / Ribbon 121 patch. It sounds less middy/mix proeminent/rock-ish and more modern/smooth than the tone i used for now (MArshall 412 V30 with U87), and should work better. I'll remic my rythm guitar tracks with that setup and see how that works. Also i'm gonna try to remic through a VHT 412 P50E/Royer 121 patch since i had a very good tone for a clip in a similar genre a while ago.

 

[Djabthrash]

Made some changes to the mix i posted yesterday (direct link : http://www.netmusicians.org/?section=id&value=6262) :

* raised the overall volume (it was way too quiet)
* raised the bass volume a tad, and boosted it a tad more at 105Hz
* dropped the rythm guitars a bit
* compressed the clean guitar in the middle, added some flanger to it, and dropped its volume also

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6269

Also i remiked the rythm guitars through other cab/mic/miking setups :

- Mesa Boogie Rectifier Standard 4x12 (closed back) with V30's / Royer 121 (ribbon) : http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6271
- ENGL Pro 4x12 with Celestion V30 speakers / BeyerDynamic M160N (ribbon) : http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6273
- VHT deliverance 2x12 with Eminence P50E speakers / Royer 121 (ribbon) : http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6274

 

[FIXXXER]

to be honest i was expecting a much better sound from this hard/software.
the guitars sound lax and detuned. trillian sounds very impressive,
the drums in gereal are good but the complete mix has no punch and power.


chers
S.

 

[Djabthrash]

to be honest i was expecting a much better sound from this hard/software.
the guitars sound lax and detuned. trillian sounds very impressive,
the drums in gereal are good but the complete mix has no punch and power.


chers
S.

Thanks for your feedback. Once again this can almost be considered as a rough mix, there's hardly any processing for now.
The guitar tones i'm using were the ones i was using in my previous mixes with my old ghetto setup (ghetto FL programmed drums with single samples, ghetto re-EQed GP bass), so i guess i'd better retweak my tones a bit to have them fit better with my new bass/drums mix, not to mention i have to process/EQ/whatever the bass/drums way more IMO.

As for the guitars, they may be slightly detuned, since this was just a quick tone test. Not to mention the playing was sloppy as fuck.

When you say they sound lax, what do you mean exactly ? Like they sound soft/have no power ?

Also, i'm gonna try reamping with setups i worked with better in the past (Engl Cab / Blue Dragon Fly condenser / SM57).

Somebody else ?

 

[Nuno Filipe]

well what can I say! the whole mix it´s quite dark. You have to work the punch on the kick and also the snare. The snare it´s muffled and the kick have too much lows and it´s undefined. It´s a bit lifeless mix. It´s not a bad mix but needs more work.

 

[Djabthrash]

well what can I say! the whole mix it´s quite dark. You have to work the punch on the kick and also the snare. The snare it´s muffled and the kick have too much lows and it´s undefined. It´s a bit lifeless mix. It´s not a bad mix but needs more work.

Thanks for the pointers ! I'll work on that (kick / snare / kick-bass separation). About the snare & kick punch, is that something that i can do with EQ (which i will use also to have the kick and the snare get more definition) or rather compression ? I mean, with punch you mean "smack" (which i guess is mainly achieved with compression) or body or something else (more click for the kick and more air/treble for the snare maybe ?) ?

EDIT : now i can hear that my mix is definitely muffled, and that is because i hardly EQ-ed the drums i guess. I'm gonna work on that next (not only snare and kick but also cymbals which need some brightening).

 

[Djabthrash]

A couple of questions regarding the drums processing :

- do you eq then compress the snare, or the other way round ?
- i use Superior 2's mid ambience and far ambience (with mostly the snare bleeding and a high pass to get rid of the mud) mics to give the snare some room sound. I know that is quite common (using room mics for snare reverb), do you guys compress the blended "regular snare mics + snare room mic" altogether or do you compress the regular snare mic and leave the snare room mic uncompressed (or compressed separately with different settings).
- same question as the previous point but with "snare top + snare bottom" instead of "regular snare mics (top, bottom, and the other one) + snare room mic"
- for now i've sent both my kick and my snare (all their mics i mean, except for the ambience mics) to a same bus with some compression. Do you guys compress them altogether or do you apply separate compression to them ?
- EDIT : just found out the SD 1176 snare mic was a compressed snare mic (which one ? top ? bottom ? both ? didn't find any info in the user manual / Toontrack forum)... how do you guys use that one ?

I'm pretty sure if i search/read on drums processing threads posted on this forum like a mo'fo (which i will do anyway, but maybe a tad later) i might find some info, but i could use some quick pointers so that i can mix during my 4 hours train drive (with no internet access) tomorrow

 

[Mikaël-ange]

I'm pretty sure if i search/read on drums processing threads posted on this forum like a mo'fo (which i will do anyway, but maybe a tad later) i might find some info

You will find all info you need, seriously isn't hard to find this

 

[Djabthrash]

You will find all info you need, seriously isn't hard to find this

Yeah i found some already, esp. :

snare : EQ then compress

 

[Djabthrash]

Made some changes to the mix i posted last week :

* tweaked the drums a lot (changed the EQ inserts for snare, kick and OH/HH, balanced the levels out, didnt tweak the toms yet though)
* balanced the mix levels out

I think it sounds better (kick and snare are tighter and have more definition, the overall mix has more high end) (but a tad quieter though) but still needs some improvement (further drums (incl. toms) EQ-ing, and also bass EQ-ing), you guys tell me.

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6302 (with ENGL Pro 4x12 with Celestion V30 speakers / BeyerDynamic M160N (ribbon))
http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6303 (with Mesa Boogie Rectifier Standard 4x12 (closed back) with V30's / Royer 121 (ribbon))

 

[Djabthrash]

Anyone on my latest update ?

 

[Djabthrash]

Late night bump

 

[Djabthrash]

Made some changes to the mix i posted on 2010-03-23 (direct link : http://www.netmusicians.org/?section=id&value=6302) :

* brought the kick up a tad
* lowered the snare volume
* balanced the mix levels out

I think it sounds better (drums and overall mix are more balanced volume-wise) but still needs some improvement (further drums (incl. toms) EQ-ing, and also bass EQ-ing (maybe a tad less pick noise treble/presence should be wise), you tell me :

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6600 (with ENGL Pro 4x12 with Celestion V30 speakers / BeyerDynamic M160N (ribbon))

Also remiked through my go-to cab/mic/miking/post-EQ setups :

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6601 (with ENGL Pro 4x12 with Celestion V30 speakers / Shure SM57 (dynamic))

Sounds more dynamic/percussive/punchy/edgy and mix-ready/balanced than the BeyerDynamic M160N IMO, but i am not a huge fan of the kinda fizzy character and tone, especially for ringing open chords.

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6602 (with ENGL Pro 4x12 with Celestion V30 speakers / Blue Dragonfly (condenser))

This is my fav mic so far, not as good for guitar tones mix-readiness as the SM57, but still good and i like the character and tone better (sounds more like my tone, and i love the growl).


You guys tell me what you think.

 

[Djabthrash]

anyone ?

 

[Mikaël-ange]

Seriously use dropbox

 

[Djabthrash]

This mix is a bit old but quite an improvement compared to the last one posted here IMO, let me know what you guys think :

EDIT : watch out, this latest mix is way louder than the older ones

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=8632

From what i remember i raised the drums velocities and it made a huge difference. I also improved the drums EQ-ing, and the snare and roomverb also. I worked on the bass tone and guitar tone some more also.

I know it still needs a lot of work (especially the drums (toms need more processing, and i have to deal better with roomverb and ambiance). I'll get back to work on it soon and post an improved mix here) but i could use some pointers from you guys since i'm gonna get back to work on this mix to get a nice mixing template for my own project.

 

[Djabthrash]

Seriously use dropbox

I don't see why i should use it against Netmusicians... the latter works just fine... you can stream and download the mp3 file, you have no quality/size restriction, and you can put info with the uploaded clip.
EDIT : Not to mention Dropbox get blocked from my work proxy, and Netmusicians doesn't
EDIT 2 : But i can see how Dropbox is pretty practical for everyone here, but seriously for me Netmusicians does the trick better (for guitar tones -oriented clips at least) and it just takes 2 clicks for you guys to download the file (and just one to stream).