nafnikufesin said:
You're the one worried that you'll never be able to protect yourself without a gun and it is every Americans duty to take the law into their own hands. You're the one that is worried that someone, somewhere, may own a gun, so you better have one too to protect yourself against them. There are many legitimate reasons for owning a gun, and I have never disputed that.
I never stated it is the duty of every person to "take the law into their own hands." However, I have no problem with people protecting themselves. I know you've stated you oppose the death penalty. I am opposed to it too, but for different reasons. I am not sure how you feel about killing or injuring in self-defense. Perhaps you oppose it. It would explain a lot. I have a friend who agrees with me on nearly every political issue, except gun control. He is a Christian pacifist.
nafnikufesin said:
Yes, I know, your country's outdated constitution makes it a "right" to own a gun. Does that mean it should be. Rights are very much based on moral values, and also form from the context at the time they were developed. Rights in your country are very different than rights in many other countries in the world. I believe that owning something that can kill somebody else should be a priveledge, not a right.
Outdated? Please! It's more needed now than ever before. The politicians ignore it, unfortunately. However, my country's constitution did not "make" anything a right. Rights are pre-political and pre-legal. It merely recognized those rights.
To quote the greatest political document ever written, the
Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Even if the US Constitution did not state the right to keep and bear arms, there would still be no federal authority over it, as Congress' powers are very clearly limited by
Article I section 8 of the Constitution. That is why some of the Framers of the Constitution opposed the Bill of Rights. They thought it was superfluous.
nafnikufesin said:
So you don't think that there should be any limitations on the kind of firearms that people can own? Automatic weapons, guns that can fire "armor-piercing" bullets, these are okay with you? Now I'm not an expert on guns, so I don't specifically know these specific guns were that were outlawed, but regardless of your "right to bear arms", it doesn't mean that you are entitled to own any gun ever made regardless of what kind of gun it is.
I am entitled to do whatever the hell I damn well want, so long as I do not initiate force or fraud against another person. We can disagree about the exact implications of such a principle, but I don't give up on the principle.
The real question is:
why is it ok for you, or the government, to initiate violence against me because I choose to own a particular weapon? If I do not follow your orders, the government comes after me with its guns. If I try to resist, I can be shot. In order to "control" guns, you must use violence or the threat of violence against me. By what right can you do this to me?
nafnikufesin said:
I have never stated that, which is why I never responded to it. I don't think that any whacko should be able to walk into their local pawn shop, Wal-Mart, hell, even their local bank, and walk out with a gun. A gun is a dangerous weapon, and the prime reason for its original invention was to kill someone or something with it. If someone is properly trained and educated in the safe use and storage of a firearm (and can prove it through testing), has no criminal record or serious mental illness, and follows the proper laws (which in my country includes REGISTRATION), there are many legitimate reasons for owning a gun.
Registration would be the first step to many things, but you assume it is only destined for one single path, confiscation of your precious weapon. We go back to our little discussion about paranoia.
I've provided examples of where gun registration has led to confiscation. Canada and Nazi Germany. It has also happened in Britain, Australia, Greece, Cuba, Germany, Soviet Georgia, Ireland, Jamaica, and Bermuda, to name a few. It has happened in New York City. When gun registration was started in NYC, critics were labeled paranoid. They were also correct. Their guns were banned. The government had a convenient list of everyone who registerd theirs. (Note: criminals in the US cannot be required to register their guns. It violates their fifth amendment protection against self-incrimination. The Supreme Court ruled on this in Haynes v. U.S. in 1968. Only people with no criminal records can be required to register their guns, the way I understand it.) I know there are many members of the US Congress who have total gun confiscation as their ultimate agenda. Even if I were sympathetic to your argument for registration, I would have to oppose it simply to not cede any ground.
nafnikufesin said:
If we're going to draw comparisons to Hitler, I'd be much more worried about your leader rather than mine.
Well I voted against him, so I can't speak in favor of him. At least he hasn't tried to confiscate people's guns to make them more vulnerable to tyrants. I can't defend very much else of him.
But I must confess, I didn't mean to get into a huge debate over this. It's my natural tendency to respond to political postings. I sort of made a New Years resolution that I would not get involved in political debates on the Anthrax message board of all places, and I intend to stick to that. So, to quote the abominable Bill O'Reilly,
"you get the last word."
