A question about Iron Maiden's last album's production

[Travis Bickle]

Greetings to everyone. I have a question which I think you guys may answer. It is about the production of the last Maiden album "Dance Of Death"...

As you may know, Kevin Shirley was the producer for the last 2 Iron Maiden studio albums. Many fans (including me) think that the production of these albums are sub par compared to Martin Birch era albums, especially the last album "Dance Of Death". There are many different complaints about it, such as the overall sound quality (some people said it has to do with the mastering), about Kevin Shirley not interfering into the music at all, just working like a sound engineer etc. and in the process not taking the highest efficiency from the 3-guitar line-up etc...

In the last few days, we have been discussing a particular problem in the Iron Maiden forum about "Dance Of Death" album: the "mysterious" slight tempo changes in some songs. We can't be sure about the problem 'cos there're no producers or professional musicians in the board.

As an example, in "Rainmaker", after the solos (at the beginning of the last chorus), there is a "slight" tempo decreasing. It's not really noticable in the first listen, but it is there.

We first thought this was done intentionally because after all, the drummer Nicko McBrain uses a lot of tempo changes in concerts, but there was no such a tempo change in the live versions of this song, they played very straightforward. And at the end of the day it is a very slight tempo change, hardly noticable for a non-musician listener, and there are such tempo changes in some of the other songs too. I don't think Nicko McBrain would use this kind of tempo changes, because they are totally meaningless, and don't add anything to the flow of the songs.

Now I know very little about producing, but I know that the album was recorded "live": they recorded about 6-7 takes of each song and then took the best parts from each one and put the songs together using cut & paste method. It is known that Nicko McBrain never uses click tracks, or a metronome, he plays naturally and loose. So it is hard to play the same song with the exact same tempo twice.

Can these slight tempo changes be the result of cut & paste method without recording with click tracks? If it is, then isn't it an amateurish fault for a producer like Kevin Shirley and a band like Iron Maiden? And what do you guys generally think about the production in the last Iron Maiden album?

 

[Ermz]

Just the fact that he recorded without a click track would attest to the slight tempo changes. More power to him if it's only 'slightly' noticeable because it's very hard to keep the same tempo without refference.

 

[Travis Bickle]

But is this a "normal" thing to do? I mean recording live, putting the songs together with cut & paste method but not using any click tracks to keep the same tempo? After all, they are recording "live" in order to sound "natural", this is their aim nowadays. But in this case, with these small unintentional tempo changes it becomes completely unnatural. When you notice that tempo change and know that it wasn't consciously made and it's because of the production, it takes the "natural" feeling away already.

 

[Ermz]

Yes, it does seem self-defeating. Normally when a band want to sound 'raw' or 'live' in the studio, they do it all in one take. Provided they aren't happy with the take, they'll do it all again. This is the first time I've heard of a band trying to sound natural whilst also cut/pasting their riffs around . It doesn't sound like it would make for a consistent recording.

 

[A Gruesome Discovery]

As far as the sound goes, I'd have to say that the ball was likely dropped at the mastering stage. But aside from the levels on the CD (WAY too squashed), I rather like how it sounds- kind of has a vinyl vibe about it. If the album didn't spend so much time vacationing at the Zero dB Resort & Hotel, it would have a neat retro metal thing going on.
And i agree, the tempo changes were probably an intentional- if a bit ham-fisted- way to stress the fact that it was live takes, and also to build excitement throughout the songs, because we don't want no metro-gnomes on our maiden records. Speeding up the tempo a bit over a few bars builds a sense of anticipation, and slowing it down does whatever the opposite of "anticipation" is.

 

[Travis Bickle]

Yes, it does seem self-defeating. Normally when a band want to sound 'raw' or 'live' in the studio, they do it all in one take. Provided they aren't happy with the take, they'll do it all again. This is the first time I've heard of a band trying to sound natural whilst also cut/pasting their riffs around . It doesn't sound like it would make for a consistent recording.

My feelings exactly. Here's an example of this recording technique from the producer Kevin Shirley's studio diary (this part tells about how they recorded the song "No More Lies"):

"... Cut a great, typical 8 minute Maiden song, which sounds just fantastic. A little rehearsal and take-off! First take was interrupted by Steve after about 5 minutes as he was struggling with his headphone mix. Then take 2 was fantastic, as was T3, and I thought we had it, but they started a take 4 anyway, which someone screwed up, and which wasn't nearly as good, and as I felt we had it in the bag, I had the fellas come and listen. They were dripping with sweat!
Turns out T3 was the winner, and we spliced in the second verse from T2, as well as the last verse and chorus, Steve preferring them to T3, but they were both really good..."

Know what? There's a very slight tempo decreasing in the last verse-chorus of this particular song, it is faint, but keeping in mind that those parts are taken from another take of the song, you feel it.

In songs like "Rainmaker" and "New Frontier" these tempo changes are plain as day though, which is a shame.

 

[A Gruesome Discovery]

This is the first time I've heard of a band trying to sound natural whilst also cut/pasting their riffs around

What about................................... St. Anger?
"OMG IT'S GONNA BE PURE RAW METALLICA" ~ Lars

 

[Travis Bickle]

As far as the sound goes, I'd have to say that the ball was likely dropped at the mastering stage. But aside from the levels on the CD (WAY too squashed), I rather like how it sounds- kind of has a vinyl vibe about it. If the album didn't spend so much time vacationing at the Zero dB Resort & Hotel, it would have a neat retro metal thing going on.
And i agree, the tempo changes were probably an intentional- if a bit ham-fisted- way to stress the fact that it was live takes, and also to build excitement throughout the songs, because we don't want no metro-gnomes on our maiden records. Speeding up the tempo a bit over a few bars builds a sense of anticipation, and slowing it down does whatever the opposite of "anticipation" is.

I know what you mean, the tempo changes are very typical to Maiden sound, as I said Nicko McBrain plays with tempo changes in gigs, but not in all of the songs. I mean a song like "Infinite Dreams" has a lot of tempo changes, but a song like "The Trooper" doesn't. In "Rainmaker"s case, the tempo meaninglessly drops after the guitar harmonies. It is a very straightforward song and they play it without any tempo changes in concerts, but in studio version there's this very slight tempo change. I personally think the tempo changes in songs like "Dance Of Death" or "Paschendale" are natural, but on "Rainmaker" or "New Frontier" they aren't.

 

[Adrian Smith]

I know what you mean, the tempo changes are very typical to Maiden sound, as I said Nicko McBrain plays with tempo changes in gigs, but not in all of the songs. I mean a song like "Infinite Dreams" has a lot of tempo changes, but a song like "The Trooper" doesn't. In "Rainmaker"s case, the tempo meaninglessly drops after the guitar harmonies. It is a very straightforward song and they play it without any tempo changes in concerts, but in studio version there's this very slight tempo change. I personally think the tempo changes in songs like "Dance Of Death" or "Paschendale" are natural, but on "Rainmaker" or "New Frontier" they aren't.

Maybe Andy himself will have the cortesy to express his opinion on this matter , mate

 

[Travis Bickle]

Maybe Andy himself will have the cortesy to express his opinion on this matter , mate

Let's hope so. In my humble opinion he would be the best choice as the producer for the next Maiden album. His work for Blaze destroys Maiden's latest stuff productionally.

 

[Andy Sneap]

to be honest I think we'd be clashing heads before we even started recording. The last few Maiden albums (actually since Seventh Son) have done little for me. Thats not to say they're no good, just not my thing.
I saw Janick and Nicko on an interview on about how they didn't like click tracks, haha wonder why?? I'd prefer to hear Maiden go less proggy and more straight forward again. To me, the best album was Piece of Mind, sound and song wise.
Martin Birch

 

[gorhelper]

Andy, many, many people from the Maiden fanbase want you to produce their next album. Be aware of that... Personally I really admire what you have done with Blaze's sound. My congradulations, you're the best metal producer nowadays as far as I am concearned. Apart from the musical side of things, what do you find wrong -as a producer- on Brave New World and Dance Of Death? Personally, I think that "recording live" system always brings the record sound down a bit. That is the case in my opinion with Bood And Belief as well, I think it would have sounded better if it had been recorded instrument by instrument, not that it's bad, it's not up there with the previous Blaze efforts though (compositions were weaker this time as well though)

 

[Hopkins-WitchfinderGeneral]

Recording without a click, is kinda like being a mammal but having no backbone.

In my opinion anyway.

 

[SickBoy]

The last few Maiden albums (actually since Seventh Son) have done little for me. Thats not to say they're no good, just not my thing.

My feelings exactly...

I saw Janick and Nicko on an interview on about how they didn't like click tracks, haha wonder why??

I feel that Nicko could play with metronome with no problem, only if he wanted to. As far as Janick goes, never liked his playing. He's too mushy and unclear in playing, likes to play somewhat fast, but always does it very noisy. IMO an awful guitar player. I really can't think of any other reason for him being in Maiden besides being a mate of Bruces from way back... They could've found a guitar player million times better, they had the whole world beneath their feet (it was 1989., remember?)

 

[Andy Sneap]

Hadn't he been in the band longer than Adrian by the time Adrian came back??

It's hard to say without seeing what goes on internally, but you can see how the song writing changed so much after Adrian left, and you just have to look at the last 2 Dickinson solo albums he was involved with, both great.
Great player and songwriter

 

[Adrian Smith]

Hadn't he been in the band longer than Adrian by the time Adrian came back??

It's hard to say without seeing what goes on internally, but you can see how the song writing changed so much after Adrian left, and you just have to look at the last 2 Dickinson solo albums he was involved with, both great.
Great player and songwriter

#

Hi Andy..thanks for replyin so quickly.Am a bit confused now when you said above Janick has been in the band longer than Adrian...whats that a year or so?? And how many studio albums did Gers manage to record in the 90;s compare to how many Adrian did in the 80;s?? Me and Travis (and other friends in Maiden BB) totally agree that Maiden hasnt done anything impressive since SSOSS and wee really doubt they will do now, after all the next album will probably be their last studio album ( hopefully about 80 min long,with about three or four long boring/overblown songs which last about a fucking month to listen to them, all identical in intro and finish )

Again. Many thanks for your reply

 

[ChemicalMan]

It's hard to say without seeing what goes on internally, but you can see how the song writing changed so much after Adrian left, and you just have to look at the last 2 Dickinson solo albums he was involved with, both great.
Great player and songwriter

I agree. Not that my opinion means anything more than the average fan, but it's nice to see working professionals in the music biz give Adrian his props. He's not a spotlight hog, doesn't do a lot of unnecessary widdly-widdly, keeps it professional, and yet still plays with a lot of heart and tone. I too think that Bruce benefitted greatly from having Adrian on AoB and TCW. That's no slight on Roy Z., who is an amazing guitarist, songwriter, and producer as well.

Of the 3 guitarists in Maiden, Adrian alone continues to update his sound and push himself. I wish they would go back to just Dave and H. Dave's playing has suffered from too much contact with Gers. Where he used to improvise a bit around the basic structure of a solo, now he just widdles away with hammer-and-pulls and gets into shred contests with Gers (which he easily wins). Dave needs to rein it in and get back to his glory years style.

Thanks for the comments Andy and keep up the good work.

Cheers,
ChemicalMan (as in, The Chemical Wedding by Bruce, not drugs)

 

[Travis Bickle]

I feel that Nicko could play with metronome with no problem, only if he wanted to. As far as Janick goes, never liked his playing. He's too mushy and unclear in playing, likes to play somewhat fast, but always does it very noisy. IMO an awful guitar player. I really can't think of any other reason for him being in Maiden besides being a mate of Bruces from way back... They could've found a guitar player million times better, they had the whole world beneath their feet (it was 1989., remember?)

Nicko is a great drummer and he would play with metronome, but he is a bit conservative in his way of playing - he even doesn't use double bass pedals, the first time he used was on "Face In The Sand" from "Dance Of Death" album and they didn't play that song at gigs because Nicko hated playing with double pedals. That's too bad because it is one of the best songs of the album.

As for Janick Gers, he was even much worse as a guitar player and song writer when Adrian was not in the band. Now he pushes himself forward because there's a competition. I think he does his best now but it is still not enough, if you know what I mean. He's not innovative, he is not a good soloist, IMO he is just an average guitar player. And his stage antics destroyed Maiden's laid back stage image from 80s, which was a total shock to my system when I saw the video of Bring your Daughter To The Slaughter back in 1990. Not only he dances around the stage, he also plays with errors because of this.

Interestingly, it wasn't Bruce who offered Janick to the band. Bruce and Janick are mates, when Bruce wanted to record a light-hearted solo album he worked with Janick, not because he was good, because they were friends and Janick was out of a job at the time and on the verge of selling his equipment. Steve saw one of Bruce's solo gigs in USA and he was amazed with the energy. I think he wanted to recreate it in Maiden, that's why he wanted Janick as a replacement. Nicko also liked the idea.

I think it was not fair move to kick Adrian in the first place, just because he didn't want to record a half-baked album in a barn. And getting Janick was a complete fault. But I guess the most important thing for Steve is the band members must be "nice blokes". Janick is a nice guy, he gives 100% to the band (I don't think he has that much in him though), so Steve will never turn his back on him. The biggest reason for hacking Dennis Stratton and Clive Burr was they didn't get on very well with Rod Smallwood (the manager) and Steve. Dennis Stratton is twice the guitar player that Janick Gers is, but Steve made Janick a millionaire and not Dennis. Let's see what the future will bring us with this line-up.

 

[Travis Bickle]

Hadn't he been in the band longer than Adrian by the time Adrian came back??

It's hard to say without seeing what goes on internally, but you can see how the song writing changed so much after Adrian left, and you just have to look at the last 2 Dickinson solo albums he was involved with, both great.
Great player and songwriter

I couldn't agree more Andy. Adrian is open to innovation, he is nowadays using drop d tuning in songs like "wrathchild" and "fear of the dark", I guess Janick would never use drop d tuning. I don't think Steve would let Adrian write songs in drop d tuning though, he discarded a few of Adrian/Bruce collaborations from the last album (Adrian stated this in an interview) because the songs were "slow and very heavy". That's too bad because in 80s Maiden were progressing in each album, adding different influences to their sound without changing the core of their music and Adrian played an important role in this. Using many guitar layers and synths in "Somewhere In Time" album was his idea, and in my opinion it is a timeless classic.

Roy Z is also a good guitar player and song writer in my opinion, he wrote most songs off Bruce's last 2 solo albums. What do you think about him? In my humble opinion you two are the best metal producers out there nowadays!