About going to a studio...

[colonel kurtz]

Phew, I was thinking of posting this, but thought better of it - now I don't feel so bad just +1'ing it (though while I guess I agree with the demos = shit part, adding one or two more songs and calling it an EP solves that I still honestly don't feel like all that money is worth it though, considering the amazing quality of stuff I've heard from people on here who I at least assume are charging nowhere near as much, considering they work out of their bedrooms with relatively inexpensive gear but are talented as hell!)

no shit dude

i'm finishing up a demo/EP deal for a local death metal band...5 tracks for i won't say how much, but we'll say that i could easily spend the amount in question in weed or beer in a night

and...if i say so myself, shit sounds pretty damn good for what it is. the bass is lacking a little cause we used my shitty one with old strings tuned to A, and there's some timing issues that i just won't fix for the miniscule amount i'm being paid - but yea, $4k should get you a kick-ass full-length by a good up-and-coming producer nowadays!

edit: and marcus...even bedroom producers can find a way to get good drum tracks! we set up the kit in my dining room, which is 12x14 with wood floors and 9' ceilings...took my comp. and gear from upstairs to the living room to track, then moved back up for mixing. the drum tracks sound really good to me - good enough, at least, that i would say the drums and the drummer have more of an ill effect than the room does.

 

[Ermz]

I'm not sure I even know where to start here. I think I might try bullet point format since it will let me jump from point to point and hopefully end the urge of wanting to slam my head into my monitor.

- People want it both ways. Recall how many times you've heard the phrase 'there's no careers left in the audio industry'? I don't. Too fucking many. One of the biggest criticisms of the industry is that just about anyone with a recording system can get in, charge peanuts and then realize that there's no money to live off just with enough time to see the new wave of kids come in and give it a shot for the same amount of peanuts then subsequently also realize there's no career in it. The quality of work and ability to charge to sustain a living are now both significantly degraded, and the cycle is self-sustaining.

- There seems to be an implication that if someone has a sizable budget and will to get something done professionally that he should use a kid on a forum instead of a professional engineer working at a dedicated facility (ie. not a bedroom). Can someone run that by me again?

- There seems to be a tendency of belief in the underbelly of the indie recording scene that people with minimal gear can greatly undercut established studios and provide results that are just as good. Guess what happens when you try to set up your own facility down the track? Other nimrods in their bedrooms will try to undercut you with the claim that they can do it better, which I suppose in this era of over-compressing, sampling, quantizing and loss-laden compression formats nobody would be able to tell.

- The fact that other engineers would de-value the service so rampantly makes me feel for the people doing it tough in this industry full time. How someone can not see this undercutting & shortcut taking as a self-destructive process is beyond me.

- I'm currently freelancing at a facility that is decked out with 4 studios. 1 large format Neve-centered tracking room, one large format SSL K-series mixing room. A post suite. A mastering room/iso booth. Only 50% of the facility is booked. This facility is at the TOP END of everything we strive for in engineering. They're barely booked at all these days. What precedents do you think created a climate in which something like that would happen?

- I'm honestly offended to my very core to see this shit on an engineering forum.

 

[Dexter_prog]

though while I guess I agree with the demos = shit part, adding one or two more songs and calling it an EP solves that

Partly. I am speaking as a listener. I only get excited about EPs of bands I really love. I mean, if I am introduced to a band that has only an EP I'll probably think it is a demo called "ep" so they get more listens. I might be wrong, but that's the way I think in these situations. I believe that demos and EPs are a sample of what's to come or not-so-good songs that didn't make it for the cd (if the EP was released after the album and not close to the next album). Either way, almost every time it means it's not the best stuff that the band has to offer... (again, in my opinion)

 

[Fox Mulder]

LOL

 

[GarethSE]

LOL

+1

 

[Metaltastic]

I'm not saying he should necessarily go to a bedroom engineer, I'm saying he shouldn't rule them out because maybe the sound quality will be good enough for him and he'll save a boatload in the process! I mean, in the end, isn't the sound quality what matters? I always feel sympathy when people who run a business are having it rough, but I can only assume that those guys with the Neve and SSL boards and everything else wouldn't have any trouble getting clients if those clients thought the sonic benefits of recording at a facility like that were worth the costs. And I just have kind of a hard time feeling like anyone should be blamed for being talented at getting good sounds from not very expensive gear, or choosing to charge a lower price - people should be able to charge whatever they want for their services IMO, it's their decision to make, and if studios with more expensive rates can't offer a compelling enough reason for clients to pay more, then how is that the fault of the bedroom guy?

For the record, I definitely don't think any of the bedroom dudes on here can come close to matching the sound quality of a production by, say, Lasse, but what can I say, $4k is a lot of fucking money to me, and so I simply felt like I wanted to suggest that the OP at least explore cheaper options, and ultimately decide whether paying more is worth it to him!

 

[HandsOfDespair]

- There seems to be a tendency of belief in the underbelly of the indie recording scene that people with minimal gear can greatly undercut established studios and provide results that are just as good. Guess what happens when you try to set up your own facility down the track? Other nimrods in their bedrooms will try to undercut you with the claim that they can do it better, which I suppose in this era of over-compressing, sampling, quantizing and loss-laden compression formats nobody would be able to tell.

I think that's the main problem here.

10 years back, there wasn't any pirated plugins all over the web. Nowadays, anyone with an okay interface and some monitors can call themselves an audio engineer, because all the rest is free at hand's reach, and softwares simulating instrumentes like drums vst are becoming better each year, and more people are self-producing their music each year too. All that it takes is a couple of years of practice and you're done.

I agree that there is still a difference between real studio and bedroom producers, but like you said, most people won't notice the difference because most people don't even know what is a sequencer.

I know it may sound crazy, but nowadays I think your social abilities/reputation are as important as your mixing skills to get clients, because even if you don't want to do the job, there will be tons of other people to do it. And clients will always choose the nice guy instead of the unsocial guy, even if he might be better than the nice guy.

I hate to say it, but I think that in 20 years, most studio will only have the basic stuff, most analog stuff will have disappeared because like I said simulations are becoming better each year.

 

[colonel kurtz]

The fact that other engineers would de-value the service so rampantly makes me feel for the people doing it tough in this industry full time. How someone can not see this undercutting & shortcut taking as a self-destructive process is beyond me.

i totally see where you're coming from here...but sometimes, when you're trying to land your 1st producing gig in an area that's dominated by some pretty well-known guys(see: joey sturgis), and you have a band approach you who says they have no $$, you have to come up with an amount that at least puts a little in your pocket, while also making them respect the work that's being done

i would love to be charging $30/hr for the shit - but no one within 2000 mi. knows me as an engineer, so i gotta go what i gotta do...

 

[GarethSE]

I'm not saying he should necessarily go to a bedroom engineer, I'm saying he shouldn't rule them out because maybe the sound quality will be good enough for him and he'll save a boatload in the process! I mean, in the end, isn't the sound quality what matters? I always feel sympathy when people who run a business are having it rough, but I can only assume that those guys with the Neve and SSL boards and everything else wouldn't have any trouble getting clients if those clients thought the sonic benefits of recording at a facility like that were worth the costs. And I just have kind of a hard time feeling like anyone should be blamed for being talented at getting good sounds from not very expensive gear, or choosing to charge a lower price - people should be able to charge whatever they want for their services IMO, it's their decision to make, and if studios with more expensive rates can't offer a compelling enough reason for clients to pay more, then how is that the fault of the bedroom guy?

For the record, I definitely don't think any of the bedroom dudes on here can come close to matching the sound quality of a production by, say, Lasse, but what can I say, $4k is a lot of fucking money to me, and so I simply felt like I wanted to suggest that the OP at least explore cheaper options, and ultimately decide whether paying more is worth it to him!

But that's the thing though man.
Only the audiophiles are going to listen to a recording done on a neve desk and tape and tube mic pre's and go
OMGZ TEH ANALOGUE MAKES SO MUCH DIFFERENCE OMGZ I AM TEH ENLIGHTENED BECAUSE I ASK FOR GUTSHOTS ON GEARSLUTZ KAWAIII ^_^_^_^_^!!!! :3
The rest of civilisation, read: 99% of fuckwits with an mp3 player don't give a fuck.
That is why so many metal bands are happy with piss poor drum takes.
That is why so many people are happy with their MG half stack
That is why so many people are content with 128k mp3's through shitty earbud headphones

I mean fuck I like to think my recordings are now good enough that someone with an ipod and some headphones will have their ipod on shuffle and have one of my songs play and they won't notice much of a difference in quality. I mean that in the least arrogant way humanly possible, even though it probably didn't come off that way, but bare with me.

The difference between me and some guy with a Neve desk is that the dude with the Neve desk is going to give you that professional sound. Working with a great producer and honing your music to absolute perfection is the other half of the battle.

I mean I'm speaking from a bit more of a pop standpoint here because that's funnily enough the direction I'm finding myself leaning when it comes to AE work now. I'm wanting to actually start PRODUCING more and more, I want mroe of a hand in shaping music. I wanna help shitty pop-punk bands actually morph their song into something you could hear on the radio and think FUCK THAT IS SOME CATCHY FUCKING SHIT but I think the same shit applies full stop, whatever the genre unless its ULTRA KVLT TR00 BLACK METULZ who don't work with producers to hone their music BECAUSE THAT IS SO UNTR00.

If someone has the budget to go work with the Neve desk then goddamnit they should fucking do so, because as much as some dude in his fucking bedroom could give you one hella meaty tone, they won't be able to PRODUCE you in quite the same way.
Yeah I fucking hate Rick Rubin audio-wise (and as a producer too, to be fair, but he's one successful motherfucker for a reason) but if him and the bedroom kid were using the exact same gear, I'd still be going with Rick Rubin.

When you go to record shit in the studio it should be more than getting your shit onto "tape" as it were. You should expect someone with some fucking expertise to guide your hand musically too.

I would pay 4k to work with a professional producer if I had the money, hell yes. I wouldn't be a cheap fucker and go with a bedroom studio, I'd be getting the very best I could get if I could afford to.
Alas, I can't afford that, which is why I took this whole AE thing up in the first place but fuck it. The point stands.
I agree with Ermz for the most part.

 

[Ermz]

i totally see where you're coming from here...but sometimes, when you're trying to land your 1st producing gig in an area that's dominated by some pretty well-known guys(see: joey sturgis), and you have a band approach you who says they have no $$, you have to come up with an amount that at least puts a little in your pocket, while also making them respect the work that's being done

i would love to be charging $30/hr for the shit - but no one within 2000 mi. knows me as an engineer, so i gotta go what i gotta do...

That's understandable. Everyone has to start somewhere. It's the implication that those WITH the money AND the will to spend it on a truly professional product should use a guy that charges like 50 bucks a song working out of his parents' house. Hell that was, and still in many ways is what I am.

I wouldn't have the gall to offer to take the guy's money unless he really liked the work I did. At the end of the day, there is only so much you can do when limited in such ways. It's NOT going to sound the same as tracking in a stellar live room with stellar outboard gear. If the client wants that, then he is entitled to it.

What we have to be really careful about is how we steer the industry these days. If we say 'oh but nobody can tell' so we keep working off 002 pres, tracking everything DI, reamping, using budget condensers for vox. That is going to lower the bar for the entire industry. I was actually having a discussion with James about this the other day and he seems about as concerned about it as I am.

It's cool to start somewhere. Obviously you have to. But the inclination has to be to improve, to build up and slowly improve one's own skill-set as well as gear in order to keep pushing the boundary. If someone wants to do it as a full time hobbyist, that's fine too, but there needs to be an understanding that there is a place left for the high-end studio, and that the hobbyist with a few grand worth of gear is not going to compete with the place that has half a mil worth of gear.

In the future speaker technology will improve. Distortions will lower, range will improve. Right now we're in a shit place due to digital limitations and earbuds, but as the technology improves the end listener is going to hear these distortions much more clearly. The Opals really gave me an insight into that one. All these short-cuts we're taking will be laid bare and the productions will not have lasting appeal. This is a criticism towards the trends of brickwall mastering and every other extreme technique like over-use of autotune as well. It all ties in.

We're still in the early days of the digital era. We have to be very careful about what precedents we set. I know I'm only talking to a handful of people, but ripples into waves and all that, right?

 

[vespiz]

+1

 

[Dexter_prog]

But that's the thing though man.
Only the audiophiles are going to listen to a recording done on a neve desk and tape and tube mic pre's and go
OMGZ TEH ANALOGUE MAKES SO MUCH DIFFERENCE OMGZ I AM TEH ENLIGHTENED BECAUSE I ASK FOR GUTSHOTS ON GEARSLUTZ KAWAIII ^_^_^_^_^!!!! :3
The rest of civilisation, read: 99% of fuckwits with an mp3 player don't give a fuck.
That is why so many metal bands are happy with piss poor drum takes.
That is why so many people are happy with their MG half stack
That is why so many people are content with 128k mp3's through shitty earbud headphones

I mean fuck I like to think my recordings are now good enough that someone with an ipod and some headphones will have their ipod on shuffle and have one of my songs play and they won't notice much of a difference in quality. I mean that in the least arrogant way humanly possible, even though it probably didn't come off that way, but bare with me.

The difference between me and some guy with a Neve desk is that the dude with the Neve desk is going to give you that professional sound. Working with a great producer and honing your music to absolute perfection is the other half of the battle.

I mean I'm speaking from a bit more of a pop standpoint here because that's funnily enough the direction I'm finding myself leaning when it comes to AE work now. I'm wanting to actually start PRODUCING more and more, I want mroe of a hand in shaping music. I wanna help shitty pop-punk bands actually morph their song into something you could hear on the radio and think FUCK THAT IS SOME CATCHY FUCKING SHIT but I think the same shit applies full stop, whatever the genre unless its ULTRA KVLT TR00 BLACK METULZ who don't work with producers to hone their music BECAUSE THAT IS SO UNTR00.

If someone has the budget to go work with the Neve desk then goddamnit they should fucking do so, because as much as some dude in his fucking bedroom could give you one hella meaty tone, they won't be able to PRODUCE you in quite the same way.
Yeah I fucking hate Rick Rubin audio-wise (and as a producer too, to be fair, but he's one successful motherfucker for a reason) but if him and the bedroom kid were using the exact same gear, I'd still be going with Rick Rubin.

When you go to record shit in the studio it should be more than getting your shit onto "tape" as it were. You should expect someone with some fucking expertise to guide your hand musically too.

I would pay 4k to work with a professional producer if I had the money, hell yes. I wouldn't be a cheap fucker and go with a bedroom studio, I'd be getting the very best I could get if I could afford to.
Alas, I can't afford that, which is why I took this whole AE thing up in the first place but fuck it. The point stands.
I agree with Ermz for the most part.

I totally agree.

And, for fuck's sake, he's talking about a DEMO. Who spends lots of money on a fucking demo? It's not we are saying he should record his album with a cheap "bedroom engineer".

 

[colonel kurtz]

^i'd say i have to agree with the above

is dude is signed to a label and has a decent fanbase, and is looking to put out a professional-quality EP or a couple of singles or whatever, it may be worth it to hit up the pro studio and pay pro $$.

if it's something you're doing just starting out, and there's little fan/label/whatever support, i'd say find a local engineer with a good reputation and smaller studio packed with "prosumer" gear, and get the demo done there