Analytical vs critical listening

[Nebulous]

So the story is that i've been doing an engineering course for the last 1.5 years. We've been tought some ways to listen, but i've mainly learnt listening techniques through neccesity. These seem to be maily critical listening skills used in tracking and mixing. We're now moving into production, and we're expected to know how to analyitically listen to songs, ie, pick appart every little aspect/ instrument and make notes on it, describing it's sonics, dynamics, volume and the way it interacts with the mix. While I have learnt to do this to a point through mixing metal/rock, it is geting a bit difficult when we're expected to do it with pop/ rap/ dance/ electronic music.
So I was wandering if anyone has any techniques, tips or tricks as to develop analytical listening skills. My main problem seems to be shifting focus from things that are in the mix the whole time, especially for example when in pop there are many things going on at once, as in say a Michael Jackson track, which "play" off each other rhythmically.

Oh, and before it's stated in every reply, I will keep listrening and trying to train myself. I do understand that time will be the main factor in getting better at this.

Cheers for any help on offer, and sorry if I rambled on too much.

Daniel

 

[stringy_]

They teach you how to listen in those courses? Wow.

All I can offer is that I really like to just zero in on one instrument at a time. Give the rough mix a quick run through, and decide which area needs the most work. Drums not sitting right? Then forget about the guitars, bass, and vocals and work on the drums to get them sitting right. Always do your tweaking in relation to the mix though, never tweak while an instrument is solo'ed.

I've never been too keen on sitting back and jotting down notes though. Every time I've done that, and then sat up and started tweaking, I completely forgot about my notes...so they were useless. Now jotting down equipment settings, that's handy.

I can see what you mean by mixing rock/metal vs. stuff you're not used to. It's quite difficult for me to sit down and analyze a type of music I'm not used to also. I have electronica albums, I have jazz albums, I have blues albums, all types of music that I would be lost in if I ever tried to mix them. I think it just really takes a lot of time and constant listening. That's what I get for completely focusing on metal production and nothing else, unlike those big named engineers who seem to be able to mix anything.

However, would these giant LA-type pop-music multi-Grammy winning mixing engineers do a decent job with extreme metal? I've often wondered that. They could probably pull it off, but not on par with Andy, James, etc, or even a lot of guys on this board, who have been involved with heavy-metal for years.

 

[pixy]

They teach you how to listen in those courses? Wow.



However, would these giant LA-type pop-music multi-Grammy winning mixing engineers do a decent job with extreme metal? I've often wondered that. They could probably pull it off, but not on par with Andy, James, etc, or even a lot of guys on this board, who have been involved with heavy-metal for years.

i think you are right on this.the specialization in a particulary field apply to music production just as any.i wouldn't see how BB KING could play Necrophagist riffs or vice versa

 

[Kazrog]

I've had some limited personal experience with trying to get LA-type producers to wrap their heads around an extreme metal mix, and from what I've observed, they soon realize that it's a different world than what they're used to sonically on the pop/rock side. If they're humble and open-minded enough to re-learn a few things, and more importantly to appreciate the style of music, then their vast experience can work in their favor rather than hinder them, but this doesn't always pan out this way.

Every style of music presents unique challenges, and I think there have been enough experiments getting the LA-type guys on extreme metal projects (such as Toby Wright producing the latest Fear Factory) that have shown that these guys (generally) can't mix extreme metal as well as Andy Sneap, James Murphy, Colin Richardson, Frederik Nordstrom, etc.

 

[Nebulous]

uh, I must have explained that wrong. My progress in mixing and analysing my own mixes is pretty decent, well, i think so anyway. The problem is analyising other peoples mixes, like comercial #1 hits and shit. I'm fine when there's 20 guitar tracks, it's just a bit different when there's like 20 tracks of samples, each doing something slightly different, rhythmically, and I have to pick each one out and describe it's sound.
I wouldn't have been a pain with this on here, but I tried to do this with MJ's Dangerous, cos I knew it was well recorded and had lots of radio songs, but before the album was over I got a headache and everything just became blury.
Maybee I'll take it in shorter sessions, or start with something that i'm a little bit more accustom to..

Cheers for all the comments

 

[006]

What Neb is saying is that he is taking an educational course in audio engineering and one of the "projects" is to analyze someone's mix, each instrument and it's different qualities pertaining to the mix, how it sits, how dynamic it is, the volume, etc. Not his own mix.

The best advice I can give you is to learn how to zero-in on instruments. If you can't already do this, I'm not sure how you've been recording/engineering so far with good results. This is an important part of mixing. I do this every time I sit down in front of a session that needs mixing or even editing, you just have to be able to single out things, it means the difference between catching the very end of a vocal line that's a split second long but is off-key/sharp/flat - or missing it and always wondering why you can't get that vocal section to sit right for some wierd reason when the rest of it is perfectly fine. To me it really comes down to being anal, which I am about things, and that's why I catch stuff like that. Just listen.

~e.a

 

[Nebulous]

Yeah, you pretty much got what I was on about E.A. I figured it would just be a case of "keep listening". When I record/mix my own stuff, it's defiinately alot easier, as I generally stick to metal/ rock, which i've gotten use to listening to.
Cheers for the advice.

 

[stringy_]

Yeah, sorry Nebulous, I sort of got off the subject there.

One of my favorite electronica artists is Blue States, and they make music where there are seemingly thousands of synths, drum machines, guitars, basses, and vocals going on at once. That stuff really is hard to analyze.

It sounds lush and complex at first, but once you really sit there and try to zero-in on one snyth, or one guitar lick, you can usually pick it apart after awhile.

It does take time though, that's the best advice I suppose. But you already knew that...

Top 40 pop music is generally easier in my view, although I was listening to that new Christina Aguilara disc in my girlfriend's car (I swear! lol!) and there was some pretty interesting stuff thrown in. Your average rock band is pretty easy to pick apart, and don't get me started on hip-hop. Some of the synth lines in that stuff sounds like a 3 year old could play it. The only really difficult stuff is when they start throwing in horn sections, string sections, or synths IMO.

EDIT : Pretty much what E.A. just said, haha!

 

[Gnash]

The thing that gets me when I hear "non Rock/ Metal" productions is the guitar or lack of guitar sound. I've been recording my own guitar riffs for years, and I always double them and pan em. Pop shit has maybe a clangy guitar somewhere up the middle and the fucking drums will be panned. You wanna really get fuct up with a mix. Analyze a fuckin Beatles mix! Even though alot of techniques (comp, close miking) were invented in '65, put the original "Revolver" or "Magical Mystery Tour" (my fav) on your monitors!uke:

 

[Nebulous]

Thanks again for all the replies.
What really gets me about what we have to do at school though, is that we're gona get two songs, played twice, and we have to analyse:
-the arangement (and write it out)
-The instruments involved
-for each instrument, draw a volume timeline
-describe each instrument, and analyse how it sits in the mix
-I think a few other things

All these things I can do when I sit down with a song, it's just that it normally takes a few more than 2 listens to get it all down in what I would consider enough detail for an exam. Part of my problem is that when I zone in on one thing, I have a hard time shifting focus.

Daniel

 

[Ermz]

I think you just have to focus on the arrangement and the instruments involved first. The analysis of how each sits in the mix can be a general statement, that sort of blanketly covers how said instrument would sit in most mixes.

My problem is arrangements. My favourite band is Opeth, 'Verse-Chorus-Middle8' means absolutely nothing to me. My mind works in 'riff 2, riff 2, acoustic interlude, solo' mode.

 

[Nebulous]

Yeah I know what you mean. It seems that a few hours of listening to pop over two nights has helped a bit.