Asking a band to modify their song

[HandsOfDespair]

Because I compose a lot of stuff myself, I tend to have a lot of ideas for songs of bands I record/mix. Sometimes my ideas may change the song a lot, like if I suggest to change the structure of the song.

The problem is that a lot of bands seem close-minded about their music, and don't really care about my ideas. I think it could be because I don't have a lot of experience and a big list of bands I produced, the same bands would probably accept advice from someone like Sneap but not from someone with little experience like me.

So, if you fucking KNOW the song would be better without repeating this riff 10 times or without this stupid riff, how would you convince the band that you're right? And do you normally care about their songs, or you just do your job?

Max

 

[colonel kurtz]

i guess it would depend on what your technical role is in the project

if you're simply engineering/mixing, maybe you can toss an idea out there, and they like it they like it...if not, drop it

if you're being credited as the producer, you can typically get away with pushing harder to incorporate your own ideas into the project

 

[lolzgreg]

Tell them, let me help produce.

Lay down the rough idea, track it.

As the producer, I know the bands song, sometimes better than they do. Last band I worked with I did pre-production with them, learned the parts for every instrument and helped them along the way. They seemed to like how much I cared, so they were open to my ideas (which they ended up loving). Get involved, nicely, show them you're doing it because you care.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

The problem is that a lot of bands seem close-minded about their music, and don't really care about my ideas.

Yeah man, what would you expect? If I hired you to engineer (that being the key word here) my stuff, I would be fine with your suggestions but ultimately I would be where the decision laid to change stuff.

You just got to realize that your ideas are your ideas and people don't have to agree with them. If that puts you off, well then tough shit because that's the way it is .

 

[jrt12]

try approaching the artist like this... we'll def get your original idea down, but lets also track parts that will give us options to listen to. we can always go with what you originally wrote, but you'll never know if you liked this idea better or not unless you try it

that is of course if there's no time constraints

 

[Ermz]

^ That's the one. Give them options, let them try it their way first, but if you swing your ideas well and they warm to them, then you're set.

All of this is contingent on your role in the project though. If you're just the engineer, then it technically isn't your place to question arrangements. If they want you to do producing as well, then you're more open to start toying with their songs.

 

[greyskull]

generally we try out my idea, and surprise surprise its better.

 

[drew_drummer]

Erm.. how about you stay the hell out of the songwriting process altogether, if you're just there to engineer. I think it's fucking cheeky personally.

 

[AEL89]

Erm.. how about you stay the hell out of the songwriting process altogether, if you're just there to engineer. I think it's fucking cheeky personally.

What a great help you've been to everyone reading this thread Drew, a sincere thanks from me on behalf of everyone for your well-educated insight.

To the original poster; I think its great that you've got the best interests of the song in your head. I'm the same, I'll always say (with some level of tact), that a piece of music could be reworked if that's my objective opinion. You have to appreciate though (and I'm sure you do), that song-writing is really personal to some people and they won't budge on some stuff. I totally agree that a good way to go about it is to try both ways. Let the band vote on what they prefer.

I've been on both sides; the artist recording and the dude hitting record - as you too may have been - and my goal is always to get the best out of a song. Get the feel right, get the transitions perfect - every aspect really. Fair play dude, I'd say keep trying to get your points across as I'm sure the band will appreciate it either way.

 

[Morgan C]

How big are the changes you're wanting to make?

I might say 'that guitar solo's ending isn't working for me, can you change that?' or 'you need an extra line of vocals in there' or 'lets try and put a harmony there', and then I'll go and add in effects and shit during mixing. But I don't think I'd rearrange the whole song. I try and offer suggestions, I'm not a great composer so I leave that up to the band.

 

[Sean in Silence]

Erm.. how about you stay the hell out of the songwriting process altogether, if you're just there to engineer. I think it's fucking cheeky personally.

Is this a joke I missed or something?
wtf?

On topic: Generally when I record bands we talk about whether I'm going to be an engineer for the song/album or producer.
Lucky for me I've always been chosen to be the producer and haven't ever had the issue of having to persuade the band to try my ideas.
(Although there was a band who had an issue with Autotune but that's a different story.)
hahaha

 

[gabriel g.]

^I normaly keep my mouth shut, because the bands are recording demo cd´s/ split-cd´s/ep´s with me. I let them do their job But when they ask me what I think about the song/arrangment.... I give them my honest opinion. But I always try to keep in mind the qualitiy of the band.

When I´m hired to produce a band I´ll often question things in a positive way like "what do you think about this? This could bring the song on a new level..." or "I know you guys can do better, lets try this one...."

But the bands are making their music because they want it that way, so dont get too involved in the writing process because you can piss the guys off.
Normaly the band dont come to you to record their "shity riffs"...

 

[AudioGeekZine]

Erm.. how about you stay the hell out of the songwriting process altogether, if you're just there to engineer. I think it's fucking cheeky personally.

Sorry Drew, you're wrong.

It's the producer's job to make it as good as it can be. Their job to say 'What if'.

Otherwise the band is self producing the album and that rarely turns out in their favor.

Bands get into this frame of mind where once they've got a song written, that's how it is. "This is how we've always done/played it".
They never think of revising the lyrics so its easier to sing, is easier to understand or flows with the shape of the English language.
So often they discount ideas because they won't be able to reproduce it live, more guitars in the chorus, acoustic guitars, percussion. things that can really make the song better by adding, if nothing else, some texture and contrast.

The band SHOULD respect your opinion. You are listening to their music, if there's something there that makes you uninterested, THIS is the time to change it.

Then there's the matter of the instruments not playing things that compliment each other, or the song, the solo is in a different key. Shit that bands don't hear because they are too involved or too attached.

 

[dcb]

if you feel, something is not working, the chorus is just not doing it etc., there is no message/feel, that you could polish by doing a great mix
- you ALWAYS should tell the client as early as possible (but of course ALWAYS in a nice way like : i feel, there is still something missing. its cool as it is, but i think we should try this or that."

do we really need more and more recorded music without expression ? music thats not working?

dont degrade yourself to an "ape hitting the buttons on command". thats not what we are there for - we help the artist shape his vision.
if his vision does not really shine - go help him as early as you can to make that idea shine like the sun.

 

[jeid]

We recorded with a few guys and we always wanted their input and we never got it. The latest guy we worked with had a load of ideas and we just let him do it. We let him record guitars, drum fills and bits of bass. We didn't mind because we want outside input to our songs. I like it if someone gives ideas. If I like them, we'll roll with them, if not, we don't. I think it's best for all ideas to be laid on the table and the best ones picked out. At the end of the day you're there to make the best song possible.

If the artist doesn't want it, then you as a producer, have to accept it I guess

 

[beyond dead]

depends on whether you are producing or not. not alot of bands are going to be able to afford production, they just want to come in and record their songs in so many hours (usually very little time) Not many underground bands are gonna think "hey lets go and do a preprod at this guys place, and spend a fuckload letting him arrange our songs to be better, and to critique the way I play (aka steal my blankey that hides my insecurities in this pretty little package that accessorizes with my giant fat ego)" If they know enough to want to do a preprod, they probably want to go work with someone like andy sneap who has experience producing bands.

If a band wants me to learn all their riffs (it wouldnt be that hard hahaha) and play them, Its gonna cost them lol unfortunately these guys cant afford to have me, or anyone decent to play, or write their music for them and they also dont have the common sense to realize that someone else might know better than them.

/rant (can you tell I have been dealing with too many musicians?)

useful advice: If they are willing to listen to you, great! If not, dont waste your breath with them. if they show signs of anger and annoyance when you mention doing something outside of what they r comfortable with, stick a mic in front of them, press record, and dont put their recording on ur myspace, or put ur name on the cd, and laugh with their money all the way to the music/beer/drug dealer store

 

[Skinny Viking]

Erm.. how about you stay the hell out of the songwriting process altogether, if you're just there to engineer. I think it's fucking cheeky personally.

Seriously dude, are you just trying to be a dick or what?

If a band has pulled your name out of a hat to engineer their recording/mixing/whatever ... sure they may not be looking for a "producer" so to speak but any musician should at least be open to suggestions. There is a level of respect inherent in the fact that your are a part of their world, not just some jerkoff on the street telling them how they could be better. If a band is completely closed off to even the suggestion of trying something out, you'll find out in the 1st try at which point just settle into the role you've been hired for. If the band specifically sought you out to work with, producer credits or not, they most likely will want some kind of input from you here and there as long as you have good people skills and are aware of their sensitivities.

1st cd for my band, everything was written, arranged & produced by me before going in to track. Guitars, bass, keys, 1/2 the vox and even a lot of the drums ... I knew what I wanted, end of story. The engineer made more than a few suggestions throughout the recording of everything. I listened and tried out almost all of them. We ended up doing about 1/2 the things he suggested and kept the rest the way I originally wanted. Our cd was all the better for his ideas.

Its NEVER a bad thing for a musician or band to at least TRY something the engineer suggests, just as its never a bad thing for an engineer to at least try making a couple suggestions if he/she is in tune with the band's sound and goal.

 

[beyond dead]

Its NEVER a bad thing for a musician or band to at least TRY something the engineer suggests, just as its never a bad thing for an engineer to at least try making a couple suggestions if he/she is in tune with the band's sound and goal.

normally, if the band is competent (confident in their abilities), this works.
I find bands are usually listen when I tell them "double this part" or,"lets punch this vocal in so the one before it rings out" or "lets double these guitars to make them fuller for this part" or other ways of tracking to enhance the song, but when it comes to arrangement, thats another story lol

 

[AudioPhile777]

laugh with their money all the way to the music/beer/drug dealer store

Man, back in the day, we didn't have the luxury of a drug dealer store...

 

[Charlie E.]

Well I'd say it's pretty simple. If they refuse to listen to your ideas no matter how well you present them, then there is nothing you can do. Just sit back and hit the record button and hope your next clients are a little more understanding.
It makes no sense to give ideas to people who don't respect your opinion in the first place anyway.