Asking a band to modify their song

[AudioPhile777]

What I do usually do is ask them up front if they are open to the idea of experimenting with their music for the betterment of it (i agree with AGZ above) because this is the time to make changes... just let them know that if they don't like the ideas, you aren't going to force them... usually that will open them up to trying things... but ultimately, unless you're a famous producer, your opinion doesn't trump theirs, they have the money.

 

[drew_drummer]

Like I said originally, the thing that people overlooked in their zest to carve me a new asshole.... IF you're there to engineer... then just engineer. Don't get involved in the songwriting process. That's just my opinion though, and everyone will have an opinion on this matter.

If I was recording a band, I'd expect them to be professional enough to have their shit together. They should know how they want it to sound, they should know their songs inside and out. If they don't, then they fucking suck and have no business making music.

Of course, I'm being a little flippant, but the point is made.

 

[AEL89]

^ Yeh, fair enough dude - you made your point a lot better. Producing is so much much more than tweaking a few knobs though ()

Listen to the demos Metallica did for the black album. Bob Rock is an almost equal force to Hetfield on that record. He managed to get them to slow loads of songs right down, which is one of the big differences between that album and those before, they went from heavy + fast to heavy + steady.

That's just one example of great production. On the other hand, Kings of Leon got loads of producers in on their new record and it just strikes me as their label/management/whoever has control taking the piss. Its all choruses, perfect sounding songs, pop song structure. I preferred their old shit though thats just my opinion...its still in the most part a critically acclaimed album.

But Drew, I think you'll find most people will still disagree with you. Of course the band has to have their shit together, that goes without saying, there's just so much more to it - vocal harmonies, guitar solo phrasing, lyrical content, dynamics, structure and almost anything else you can think of. A producer isn't always there to churn out songs, make sure everything 'sounds huge', help create catchy choruses and hooks. If that's what's needed then a good producer will do it, but they're there to get the best out of a band and their music. Sometimes its simply about getting the artist in the right mindset to perform the perfect take for what is needed.

That's how I strive to work anyway. I'd be really interested in seeing how other people approach production too.

 

[Dalinkwent48@aim.com]

Like I said originally, the thing that people overlooked in their zest to carve me a new asshole.... IF you're there to engineer... then just engineer. Don't get involved in the songwriting process. That's just my opinion though, and everyone will have an opinion on this matter.

If I was recording a band, I'd expect them to be professional enough to have their shit together. They should know how they want it to sound, they should know their songs inside and out. If they don't, then they fucking suck and have no business making music.

Of course, I'm being a little flippant, but the point is made.

either way your still a dick ...dude was just asking a simple question and ermz happens to be reallllyyy good at the shit he does so hes def in the right place to be able to give some insight...on that note....regardless if your producer or engineer or even just the dude getting them beers after the sessions,if you feel it could better the song then it doesnt hurt to throw the idea out there...whats the worst that could happen? they say no and you move on to the rest of the project...on the plus side they could be completely for your ideas...also look at it this way...say they like the ideas...project gets finished and word of mouth begins "hey go to this studio if you feel your songs need a little bit more to them and you cant find the idea then theres a great engineer in there who is more then able to help you complete your songs." I say go for it you got nothing to lose

 

[AudioGeekZine]

I offer free preproduction and have yet to find a band that wants to put the effort in.

They don't see that while it may delay the start of the recording sessions by a week or two, it actually saves time where it counts.

If I was recording a band, I'd expect them to be professional enough to have their shit together. They should know how they want it to sound, they should know their songs inside and out. If they don't, then they fucking suck and have no business making music.

Again a total asshole thing to say.

Must be nice to have the luxury of only working with the best musicians in the world.

 

[drew_drummer]

Well, I only work with my own band

PS: Not trying to be an asshole, but it seems opinions were being asked for.

 

[AEL89]

Oh, so what you said is just theorised and you have no experience helping to improve other people's music in a studio environment, or haven't experienced someone other than your band-members contributing creatively to your music? Back on topic...

I'm working with a fairly well known rock/screamo group from London and I try to put as much in as I can. Although I'm always careful with the way I present my ideas, they're main song-writer rarely wants to include anything else, even if the other 4 guys are all up for it! Its a bit annoying because they're also really good friends of mine and I really want their stuff to sound good to as many ears as possible!

 

[nwright]

I don't think Drew is being too off the mark from my own point of view, but I don't think I'd express the same way he did.

Most of the time people pay me to record only. During the course of that as the relationship between me and the band grows, we'll get "into the moment", and new ides will come out from all sides as we discuss and listen to the songs...But I don't think I'd ever actually tell a band that I think they should cut a riff, change arrangements, etc. I may suggest shortening a section of they play the same riff for like 2 minutes with no vocals, but otherwise I stay out of thier "art". I feel like I'm there to make it sound as good as I can make it. And, maybe this is lack of confidence on my part, but I usually don't feel like I a.) know the band well enough b.) know the song well enough to actually think my ideas are/would be better. Most of my recommendations come in the form of guitar melody/solo ideas when tracking leads, the rest is usually based around the vocals, mainly timing and enunciation. Sometimes I feel like I'm a thesaurus in trying to keep a band lyrical intent intact, but also rhythmically correct, lol.

 

[drew_drummer]

I'm probably not coming across too well. Had a long stressful day.

 

[beyond dead]

no offense, but I think people like taking stabs at you drew. I personally am not bothered by your very opinionated blatant comments.

 

[drew_drummer]

I am very opinionated indeed. Stems from my passion for this whole way of life. The only other thing I could do in life apart from music is write. So that's my backup plan for when I go deaf!!!

 

[AEL89]

I can see why it might read as though I was digging at you, I just wanted to get back to the topic. Fair enough, you have your own opinion, that's fine with me!

 

[Sacha]

I don't see the problem with throwing out a suggestion, they can always say no. Seems a lot more ofen these days the producer / engineer / mastering etc. is one person.

 

[Josh Burgess]

Throwing out ideas is fine.... but I think some "producers" have quite a bit of ego of their own and think their opinions might be fact when they are really just opinions... and their taste in music can greatly affect what kind of suggestions they make, and therefore might not be even remotely similar to what the band is going for. Throwing out an idea is fine, but pushing it on people, particularly when they don't share your view, is going to piss them off. I mean, don't get me wrong...... from what I hear, guys like Joey Sturgis on here have changed/written all kinds of parts for bands he's produced and I understand the reason why these things happen... but the truth is I don't have respect for bands like that who need other people to polish their shit and make them what they really aren't. I guess it all depends on the circumstances... there are a lot of bands however who put serious effort into their composition and write things the way they do for a reason.... whether the engineer "gets it" or likes it or not really is neither here nor there...

 

[Josh Burgess]

I don't think Drew is being too off the mark from my own point of view, but I don't think I'd express the same way he did.

Most of the time people pay me to record only. During the course of that as the relationship between me and the band grows, we'll get "into the moment", and new ides will come out from all sides as we discuss and listen to the songs...But I don't think I'd ever actually tell a band that I think they should cut a riff, change arrangements, etc. I may suggest shortening a section of they play the same riff for like 2 minutes with no vocals, but otherwise I stay out of thier "art". I feel like I'm there to make it sound as good as I can make it. And, maybe this is lack of confidence on my part, but I usually don't feel like I a.) know the band well enough b.) know the song well enough to actually think my ideas are/would be better. Most of my recommendations come in the form of guitar melody/solo ideas when tracking leads, the rest is usually based around the vocals, mainly timing and enunciation. Sometimes I feel like I'm a thesaurus in trying to keep a band lyrical intent intact, but also rhythmically correct, lol.

See, you're humble though. The humble approach is good. There are many engineers/producers/etc. who are so arrogant that they think they know what's best for the music all the time... While there definitely are some producers out there who also happen to be excellent musicians, there are many who aren't. Someone knowing how to record/mix/etc. well does not necessarily mean that they have any skills involving playing or writing music... they really are separate arts.... Some people have talent in both areas, but many don't....

 

[Matthias King]

I tend to agree with everyone here who is of the mind that if you're being paid to engineer, then engineer and leave it at that. If you're being hired as a producer, or engineer/producer, then you have more latitude to make suggestions of that nature that significantly affect the creative process.

With that said, there's nothing wrong with offering a suggestion and seeing what happens. It just comes down to it that if you're simply the engineer, then if they don't like your suggestion, it's their choice. You aren't there to push the point any further. From their perspective, they've hired you to record and make sound good everything that they've written and played, and only that.

Now, if you really believe in your suggestion to restructure a song, or leave a riff out or whatever the case, then you have to decide if it's worth your time to cut+paste+rearrange a new version on your own time to show them and see if, once they hear it, they change their mind. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Despite the fact that you're also an artist, in this situation, THEY are the artists and you have to respect their vision, even if you don't agree with it.

 

[greyskull]

When I make these suggestions, I always say.. This is just an idea, try it out; if you hate me meddlingwith your songs then do say! No one has ever told me to leave it alone.
As far as I'm concerned, if the end product is going to have my name/ the studios name on it, I'm gonna make the product as good as possible