Asking/Telling musicians things

[cloy26]

So, I thought about this as I was tracking guitars today.

The guitarists were alright, not terrible, but their riffs were a little loose when at full speed, so I dropped the speed down a little for them to get it tighter, minimizing clutter.

However, it dawned on me, "did I insult them by doing this?"

I explained to them how I was going to track guitar with them, explaining we were going to do it in riffs and not a one shot take. I also informed them that I would feel a lot more comfortable dropping the speed a little to get it tighter. They seemed a little hesitant at first, but I convinced them in the first section of tremolo picking on the playback which sounded much tighter.

I also noticed a lot of string noise from both of them, so I grabbed some painters tape I use frequently and taped their last 3 strings for all the rhythm tracking. I don't think they thought it made much difference, but it obviously did to me.

So, my question is: How do you go about telling the musicians to do something different? Do you bluntly lay it out that "we are tracking it this way, no if ands or buts" or do you give them options and leave it up to them? I mean, they are paying YOU to make them sound as good as you can make them, however in that agreement, I may hurt their ego and come off as an asshole. lol. I am just curious how some of you guys approach using some studio tricks.

Also, what do you tell to a bad vocalist? I mean, I want to build their confidence, but I am sitting here looking at completely terrible vocal takes...

 

[jeid]

I'm a musician more than a producer/engineer. I would personally take any suggestions that would improve the final product. If I'm spending money, I wanna get the best I can afford. I want outside input on the music I'm recording. I'd say you handled it right, my only suggestion would be to compare the way they would do it and the way you'd do it and let them choose.

 

[El_Gato]

draw them a picture.

No seriously, I don't think it's a great idea to tell these kind of things, I think most of us see this from both points of views. Just try them to track the best takes and forget about them. I know it can be desperating sometimes but better having them as potential customers again rather than telling them how awfully play, if you're not Sneap or something. Let them happy with their sloppiness so they will hear it in some time and realize how bad they're so they can make something about it.

Telling all the details when they book you helps to avoid misunderstoods in the process. If they were told to be able to track to a click and they can't, well, you can always say the tunes are so great but it's such a shame it won't sound as huge as it could just because of them, not you. That's is the scariest thing for the band you can say ImO.

 

[cloy26]

haha, yes I agree, but their sloppy playing renders sloppy takes which renders sloppy songs which renders lack of customers and doubt from people in my (a newby AE/producer/studio) work.

I have done enough bands in which I played the "sit back and push record" role, and I have ended up with less than desirable outcomes. I am just interested in seeing how many guys take an active role in their client's songs. It seems like to me that the more "serious" guys would definitely step up and be a little more forceful when it comes to tracking techniques, but that comes from experience and many times of trial and error. For instance, I know now, after numerous times of tracking too hot, that it's better to be a little under leveled than over.

I try to keep a friend-like relationship with the bands too which leads to a comfortable experience which in turn leads to me being able to give them more advice/telling them what needs to change and them trusting me instead of me sounding like a jerk.

 

[AudioPhile777]

The best thing to do is say something like, "I'm hearing this (sound, noise, whatever), can you try playing it cleaner?"

If that doesn't work or they don't rectify the situation, tell them, "Ok, thats not working, lets try something else... "

basically run through it with them in a nice way... eventually/if they get tired of it not working for them, you can throw out the, "You want this to sound professional, right? Then please perform it that way... if you need/want pointers, that is what I'm here for."

That statement usually opens them up to trying new things, in my experience.

good luck.

 

[BLUElightCory]

I generally just phrase it like "I think we should do it this way because blah blah blah." Be firm and confident. I never really get any arguments.

 

[Harry Hughes]

It's always about being assertive. Never resort to aggressiveness nor should you be overly passive about things. If you can't say something without putting it in a condescending/insulting way, don't say it at all.
I'm recording and mixing a friend's demo in about a month. I just told him what I expected of him, that he had to practice before hand, bring brand new strings in, make sure he practiced to a metronome rather than just free timing and all that kinda stuff. As long as it's said calmly, but just precisely and to the point, people should understand what you're getting at.
But anyway, it sounds like you're taking an assertive approach.
This applies to all social situations really, not just the studio.

 

[greyskull]

totally depends on the person.
Ive only once had someone question me.
He was insistant that his shitty laney combo and Zoom Gfx707 with classic bedroom guitarist settings (bass gain treble 10 mids 0) sounded better than a 5150 into an orange cab....
That was a fun day and i still won him round EVENTUALLY

 

[Skinny Viking]

seems to me you already found the right approach ... say you would like to try something that will ultimately improve the finished sound of things, and if they're hesitant, do a small section the way you did and let them hear the benefit of your idea

anyone still not wanting to do something after you've proved your point is just being stubborn, which you will still get a lot of times but you can't prove a point with someone who is just being unreasonable for the sake of it anyway

 

[joeymusicguy]

draw them a picture.

Let them happy with their sloppiness so they will hear it in some time and realize how bad they're so they can make something about it.

unfortunately, some people go as far as saying "yeah it didnt turn out that good cuz the producer didnt care about it" when you let this happen sometimes

go ahead and try it, you'll see!
someday, some egotistical prick is going have all kinds of sloppy non sense going on in his playing and he wont hear it, and if you dont make suggestions to fixing those problems, he'll walk away from the cd blaming you!

 

[joeymusicguy]

i always always always offer every bit of my technical understanding, musical / performance advice in every situation im faced with

this is what makes most of my work pretty flawless. if the person cannot hear what im hearing, they usually just say "i dont hear it, but i trust you man, i'll do it however many times you need me to"

i guess that sort of trust comes with time, experiance, and reputation. but you gotta level with them. try not to make it into a thought game without clueing them in. if you hear something that is bad to your ears, do not ignore it.

 

[TheDriller]

Anyone else spotted this?

On topic,
just be assertive.
if they call you into question then remind them that you are the one who knows what he's doing.

 

[cloy26]

if they call you into question then remind them that you are the one who thinks he knows what he's doing.

fixed.

 

[TheDriller]

fixed.

lol

still, you surely know more than they do, otherwise why would they be asking you to record them?

also, remember that a part of getting all this to fly is building an air of confidence and "trust me, im a professional".

 

[cloy26]

OO I am going to use that line next time. I am going to say I talk to Joey Sturgis, that will surely get some trust from hesitant musicians. lol However, the truth is only that we frequent the same online forum. haha

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Two things for guys who need to do something different:

1. "It's not your fault, it's just the way this is recorded and to make it tight we gotta do it this way. This happens all the time, it's not a reflection of your playing -- you are a good musician. This is going to make it sound even better!"

2. Go out of the room and tell them privately, closed door, not in front of the others. And be positive about it!

 

[whatwhat]

Anyone else spotted this?

On topic,
just be assertive.
if they call you into question then remind them that you are the one who knows what he's doing.

LOLOLOL Good catch on the photo!

 

[joeymusicguy]

LOLOLOL Good catch on the photo!

hahahaha! holy shit

 

[updog]

The social play and manipulation professionals have to pull off (at least, until they're so big, their customers come to them for a reason) in this business is kind of scary to think about.

Thus far, I've only had to ask/tell my band members things, and I'm free to say things like "god that take fucking sucked" and it's okay I'm hoping to go pro someday either way.

 

[Ionei]

I think you did the best thing for what they are paying you to do!

The two times my band has went to a studio both times it came out equally suckfest, im not saying tit wasnt our fault.
But i think what attributed it was that the first time the engineer was just soooooooooo chill, an awesome guy to record with cause we got along with him great, but it didnt end up sounding how we wanted.
The second time the guy was too chill about takes, i told him BEFORE we went in to be hard as fuck on as because we wanted to track everything as best we could.
I tracked guitars to one song in 20 minutes, ALL the guitars.
Im not a sloppy player and i know my parts but i KNOW im not that tight.

If im recording someone and a part sounds out i will just stop recording and say do it again.
Works for me haha.

I've learnt from the shitty(although few) times i've recorded that you HAVE to be a hard ass to get a good result.
And bands bitch about the cd/song not sounding good enough, even though an engineer can only do so much in the mix, so the band performance on the band reflects badly on you.