Bands that "sell out"...or do they?

[General Zod]

Originally posted by JayKeeley
Ahh come on GZ - that is a bleak reflection of society and one that only works for the huge geographic disparity of the USA.

I thought we were talking about the USA? After all, Metal is still very popular in Europe. For god's sake, Opeth was nominated for a Swedish Grammy.

Originally posted by JayKeeley
At Monsters of Rock shows, Sepultura fans were rubbing shoulders with Poison fans, and people were sensing the loss of camaradarie and walked away. They inevitably regrouped a year later at a Nirvana gig.

Doesn't this gel with what I just said about these folks being bandwagon jumpers? One minute they're listening to Sepultura, and the next they're in flannel wondering why anyone would consider a man who rhymed mosquito and libido a musical genius?

Originally posted by JayKeeley
And on the other hand, if you take a country like Japan where Western marketing trends are forced down your throat every second of the day, The Scorpions will still sell out The Budokan in a matter of hours year after year.

Agreed... there's no accounting for taste.

Originally posted by JayKeeley
The point being, there's nothing wrong with more than just 200 other people listening to the same band as yourself.

I never even suggested there was. As soon as 50,000 folks want to fill a stadium to see Nevermore play "The River Dragon", I'm all over it.

Originally posted by JayKeeley
I'm not advocating the concept of "selling out" - (my definition of selling out would be, as example, for James Hetfield to start wearing cowboy hats and covering Waylon Jennings songs...heh) - but I do feel generous enough to wish for talented bands to reach beyond the boundaries of the underground.

As I said previously, I would like see the bands I listen to succeed financially, but not if it means them doing so by traveling the Metallica route.

GZ

 

[97reb]

WOW, You folks have said a lot of intense things the last week or so. I have to agree with GeneralZod and JayKeeley on different things. You'ze 2 guys are very intelligent and both of you have great opinions on the state of music (especially in the US). Hopefully, we can gather at the pre-party show at that bar (after we meet the few celebs that will be there) and have a good heated debate. I'm thinking, when we get down to it, we will agree on more things than disagree!!!!

Basically, I feel the reason why ther were bands playing to 50,000+ people in the 80's was due to their selling out. Look at Van Halen. They went from singing about good times and sex to LOVE, LOVE, LOVE in every other song title. The 80's Metal was all about songs with lyrics with no meaning, be the band from L.A. or Europe (Warrant to Europe). Personally, I wish the U.S. metal bands could have developed as well, with as much of a following, as the European Metal Bands. The U.S. went the route of Grunge and I heard fans of STP and Soundgarden talk bad about 80's metal. We can talk bad about Grunge, too, and Nu-Metal!! Without Black Sabbath, Kiss, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Dokken, Van Hagar, Nirvana, RHCP, Whatever and Whoever, we would not be where we are now. We know there has been some good, some bad, and some ugly metal music in the past (especially in the US), but lets put it all behind us now and enjoy and SUPPORT the good. Bring downfall to the bad and ugly (nu-metal sucks!!!) Death to nu-metal and Ozzfest!!! Death to Nu-Metal!!! Death To Ozzfest!!!!

 

[JayKeeley]

The fact that this debate occurs does solidify all our love for the same thing. As cliched as it sounds, metal does unite, and I don't know of any other music scene that can be discussed by its fans around the clock with no signs of slowing down. General Zod - I respect and appreciate everything you have stated, and with great articulation I might add.

For the record, I was never just talking about the USA. I grew up in Europe - sorry, I guess I was referring to the scene on a global scale, hehehe. Interesting that some might think Europe has a thriving metal scene....yes, vast majority of bands are coming out of Europe, but it's not like they have huge festivals every weekend - you can thank the immense rave/dance culture for that. Trust me - PPUSA III is being hailed even in Europe for it's significant line-up .

Originally posted by 97reb
Hopefully, we can gather at the pre-party show at that bar (after we meet the few celebs that will be there) and have a good heated debate. I'm thinking, when we get down to it, we will agree on more things than disagree!!!!

Should be fun! Everyone should walk around with our forum pseudonyms on badges so we know who's who. Everytime I see a post from General Zod, all I imagine is Terence Stamp in black vinyl commanding everyone to 'kneel before him'. (Reference to Superman II for those not in the know).

 

[MetalHeadMarc]

I usually don't post on this board but I've been intrigued by your conversation. First and foremost, I agree that bands should progress and ascend to greater plateus but some times this is a cover up for bands going to shit. Lets face it R2R isn't IF progressing. If any thing it them regressing. The songs are simpler and for lack of a better word, retarded. The riffing is under par with what Jesper usually does. We all know the masses can only handle so many notes. With this in mind, I say that IF is selling out. Evidence of this can easily be seen by the advertisement for the album. I've seen more ads and promos for R2R than any other underground metal band. The CD was in the sample booth at Hot Topic (store in the mall). I've seen ads for it in several magazines aswell. Most the vocal melodies in that album aren't that great either. One of the songs struck me as Linkin Parkesque. There is also a lack of solos and lead melodies which is prevelent in their ealier works and is one of their style signatures. The mix is horrible too, I can barely hear the lead when they play it. I actually like Clayman and the other albums after jester race and I think they rock but R2R is shit. And what is all this talk about Opeth turning to shit. Ofcoarse they have changed but Black Water Park was a great album. That was the album that got me into them but I love the older stuff too, Morning Rise is my fav. Album. I think some of you guys are the sell out police. If a band does something a little different you scream "sell out!" Whoracle was was a good album even though episode 666 is over rated.

I bet seeing Metallica today doing Battery and Creeping Death is still as incredible as it was in '86.

I can't say better than 86 because at the time i was only 2 years old but I saw them on the last tour. They are the best live metal band I've ever seen. They destroyed.

 

[JayKeeley]

Originally posted by MetalHeadMarc

I can't say better than 86 because at the time i was only 2 years old but I saw them on the last tour. They are the best live metal band I've ever seen. They destroyed.

By the way, I saw them on the Justice tour in '88 (I was 18) - and the recent tour with Kid Cock and Corn....both times, the old stuff is just stunning - I mean, words can't describe....there is nothing quite like hearing 70,000 people in a stadium singing along with "Master! Master!"...

 

[Saruman]

<<These things work in cycles - and the fans forget the simple basics: if it sounds good, then it's good enough. End of story.>>

That's true, and I don't like it. I'm not saying it's bad to like more accessible music--I just wish people would face the fact that Metallica, Megadeth, possibly In Flames, etc., have made their sound more accessible. Now, whether this was to gain money or just because they wanted to is the question, though I think the answer is obvious in most situations.

 

[MetalHeadMarc]

I don't know if you guys have ever listened to Rush but being that this is the prog/power usa board and Rush is one of the greatest prog bands. I'm not using them as an example because they fell victim to the what I like to call the "Van Halen Effect." This basically means a band starts out with guitars and a ends up with alot of synth and keyboards in place of the guitars in their later albums, which I think isn't really selling out nessesarilly but in the case of Van Halen it was. What I'm getting at is Rush's philosophy on musical Integrity. When a band sacrafices their musical integrity to sell more records, they become a sell out. So in the case of the new In Flames record being more, as you guys put it, accessible makes them sell outs because in the process they are, as Rush would say, "Shattering the illusion of integrity." Now i don't think making your music more "accessible" make some one a sell out but if your musical integrity is lost in the process you are. For instance I think that Metallica's s/t rocked, its not my fav but it deffinetly was their most popular album. I think in that record they still were metal.

 

[Creeps]

hehe my favorite part of this thread was the guy saying there was no name calling or flaming (not a direct quote) and that it's a good forum .. then a paragraph or 2 later he calls some In Flames fans morons... that gave me a hellofagood laugh at work - thanks man!

Why do bands sound different after a 1st release? If it's a successful release, they sound more tame becuase they can afford their own food now after making some bucks. Hungry, young, pissed off bands make good music. Fat, well-fed, rehab artists cover Lynard Skynard songs.. (sorry I digress, but you get my point, however dull it is).

I like the new In Flames album.. not as much as Colony, but I enjoy listening to it.

I can go either way on wanting some bands to try and "progress" into a newer sound, although staying true to their own versus putting out the same kind of music album after album.

2 Examples;

#1 Manowar - stays the same, when I buy a Manowar album I know exactly what I'm getting and I expect nothing less.

#2 Slayer - same vibe, slightly different approach each album. I look forward to their releases because they have me wondering "what's coming next?"


I've been a metal / hard rock fan all my life... where have the fans gone from the 80s? Most grew up, had kids, have full time jobs, wife, dog, etc... it's harder for us to get out to those shows all the time like we did back in college or high school. When I get to go to a show, I have to choose one that generally falls on a weekend and make sure that it's gonna be one that I will enjoy because who knows when I'll be able to make another.

I'm going to Prog/Power... my last 2 shows were Priest/Anthrax and Danzig/Prong. I gotta make em count.

Death to Ozzfest? I dunno about that.. the 1st one was classic in my opinion.. Machine Head, Sabbath, Fear Factory, Pantera, Type O and others. The 2nd one.. MOTORHEAD, Megadeth, Soulfly, Sevendust... tey all put on good shows... did I mention Motorhead? Granted I didn't go to the last 2 because I don't think Papa Roach belongs on Ozzfest, buy hey... I'm not Sharon, and by the way Motorhead blew everyone away.

Ozzfest, like it or not, helped put metal back on the map.. they proved that by being one of the top concert draws each year. If it takes a "trendy" metal fest to make some radio stations wake up then I'm all for it.. I don't know about you, but I'm tired of hearing the same flippin Pink Floyd and Metallica tunes every time I turn on the radio here in Florida. But that's due to record labels pushing the new crap and not coming in and going.. hey how about playing THIS... it almost doesn't make sense, I've been in the radio & retail music industry, I know how it "works" and it never fails to amaze me how much money they plop into an act they know will make bazillions and then drop the new band because they didn't sell enough records and they did little to nothing to promote them. If they'd take a few thousands or million away from Madonna they might be suprised if they put a little extra umph into promoting a new band. - but naaahhh that makes too much sense.

Slipknot paves the way for the younger kids to get into heavier and faster music like In Flames, Haunted, Witchery and stuff... I dont think theres anyone in this forum that hasn't at least tried a band that a friend or someone said "Hey if you like Manowar, then check out Powergod".. or something like that. So I don't mind the nu-metal.. I don't like a lot of it, but some's not bad.

I guess gone are the good old days of the 80s when at a party with a bunch of metal fans and everyone would be happy with the stereo blasting Anthrax, Megadeth, Twisted Sister, Metallica, Krokus, Whitesnake, Kiss, Alice Cooper, Slayer, Suicidal Tendencies, Savatage or Testament. It just didn't matter at most times... metal is as metal does !

 

[JayKeeley]

Excellent post Creeps. See you at ProgPower, and the first drink is on me.

 

[General Zod]

Originally posted by JayKeeley
The fact that this debate occurs does solidify all our love for the same thing. As cliched as it sounds, metal does unite, and I don't know of any other music scene that can be discussed by its fans around the clock with no signs of slowing down. General Zod - I respect and appreciate everything you have stated, and with great articulation I might add.

Agreed. The sentiment is mutual.

Originally posted by JayKeeley
Should be fun! Everyone should walk around with our forum pseudonyms on badges so we know who's who. Everytime I see a post from General Zod, all I imagine is Terence Stamp in black vinyl commanding everyone to 'kneel before him'. (Reference to Superman II for those not in the know).

LOL. That has to be one of my favorite lines in movie history, hence my nick.

I made it a point, when I met people at the show last year (and you meet tons of people), to ask them which, if any, boards they post to, and what their nick was.

GZ

 

[General Zod]

Originally posted by Creeps
Ozzfest, like it or not, helped put metal back on the map.. they proved that by being one of the top concert draws each year. If it takes a "trendy" metal fest to make some radio stations wake up then I'm all for it.

I have to disagree with you here. How has Ozzfest put Metal back on the map? I'll grant that it's help establish NuMetal's stranglehold on FM rock radio. However, it's done absolutely nothing to help the struggling, underground Metal scene. Has Iced Earth sold more CDs because Pulse Ultra is on Ozzfest? Has Nevermore begun to play bigger venues because Drowning Pool plays Ozzfest? Is Opeth about to sign a major label deal because ill Nino is on Ozzfest? I don't think so. I believe there is very little spill over between these two genres. For the most part, it's kids who listen to NuMetal. They listen to it because it's on MTV and because their friends listen to it. They are no more likely to go pick up a Symphony X CD because Ozzfest has exposed them to P.O.D.

Originally posted by Creeps
Slipknot paves the way for the younger kids to get into heavier and faster music like In Flames, Haunted, Witchery and stuff...

As I just stated, I don't think that there's any such paving going on. My nephew, for example, is huge into Korn and Slipknot. He's never heard of In Flames or Soilwork. When I burned him a copy of "Natural Born Chaos", the only song he liked was the last one, which is the slowest and most easily accessible on the disc. And I think he only liked that one, by way of comparison.

Originally posted by Creeps
I dont think theres anyone in this forum that hasn't at least tried a band that a friend or someone said "Hey if you like Manowar, then check out Powergod".. or something like that. So I don't mind the nu-metal.. I don't like a lot of it, but some's not bad.

Yes, people on this forum do that. But that's because the people on this forum represent a small cross section of the population, who love music. People on this board traveled from 37 states and 13 countries to see ProgPower 2.0. Kids who listen to Korn and Slipknot, by and large, don't share the same passion for music.

Is all NuMetal bad? No. Is most of it utter crap, with no redeeming value musically? In my opinion, yes.

Originally posted by Creeps
I guess gone are the good old days of the 80s when at a party with a bunch of metal fans and everyone would be happy with the stereo blasting Anthrax, Megadeth, Twisted Sister, Metallica, Krokus, Whitesnake, Kiss, Alice Cooper, Slayer, Suicidal Tendencies, Savatage or Testament. It just didn't matter at most times... metal is as metal does !

Gone? Hell no. You're going to ProgPower, right? Those days are three shorts weeks away!

GZ

 

[General Zod]

Originally posted by 97reb
WOW, You folks have said a lot of intense things the last week or so. I have to agree with GeneralZod and JayKeeley on different things. You'ze 2 guys are very intelligent and both of you have great opinions on the state of music (especially in the US). Hopefully, we can gather at the pre-party show at that bar (after we meet the few celebs that will be there) and have a good heated debate. I'm thinking, when we get down to it, we will agree on more things than disagree!!!!

Sounds like a plan. I'm buying 1st round.

GZ

 

[Edu_Falaschi]

First about the original post... in the angra's forum most of the messages are about how they are selling out doing unplugged songs and playing ballads like Bleeding Heart, and since they realsed the Rebirth album they have been in many TV show in Brazil, so the "formum's fans" start to think theses changes werer making them sound like pop bullshit they only didi it a couple of times they still heavy metal and even if they changed many people liked it.
Second about this last post... numetal is an american thing i mean most of theses bands who are going to play in the PP won;t be wlecome here in U.S. maybe Blind Guardian or Angra but still hard to believe, well but let's see after Angra's and Blind Guardian's American.

 

[JayKeeley]

Originally posted by Edu_Falaschi
First about the original post... in the angra's forum most of the messages are about how they are selling out doing unplugged songs and playing ballads like Bleeding Heart, and since they realsed the Rebirth album they have been in many TV show in Brazil, so the "formum's fans" start to think theses changes werer making them sound like pop bullshit they only didi it a couple of times they still heavy metal and even if they changed many people liked it.

That's a shame because Rebrith is the best Angra album IMO.

Second about this last post... numetal is an american thing i mean most of theses bands who are going to play in the PP won;t be wlecome here in U.S. maybe Blind Guardian or Angra but still hard to believe, well but let's see after Angra's and Blind Guardian's American.

You're correct - NuMetal is an American trend. Without going into details, General Zod brought up the topic of the American media spoonfeeding the general public with trendy music - and providing a breeding ground for thousands of clones (whether it be rap, pop, or nu-metal).

To those who may not realize, radio DJ's in the USA are actually given playlists for their sessions. They don't have any say in what they play as long as the selection they make is from the aforementioned list.

 

[Angrafan]

Edu- Angra Being on the brazilian media is nothing new, that sell out crap is bullshit.
I mean, the Make Believe video was #1 for a couple of weeks on MTV...
Angra is not Underground in Brazil since Holy land... That year they went to Jo Soares (Braz. David Letterman-type of show) twice! They were on TV all the time, and recorded some accoustic tracks as well...

The funniest thing is Shaman's song on a soap opera... LOL

 

[Charlie E.]

I dislike R2R.
And I also believe that In Flames have truly sold out. There are just too many signs to ignore. Look at their matching suits, their new video, the watered down songs, their choice for the single, the signs are just all too obvious.

I don't really mind. They may do as they wish, but I also get to do what I want with my money, and I decided against spending it on their new CD.
The last thing I want to do is send them the dollar message that I enjoy their new commercialized sound.

 

[General Zod]

I just read this review on Metal-Rules.com, and thought I'd post it here, as we have been discussing it for weeks. I think the reviewer hits the nail on the head.

Clipped from a review by Michael De Los Muertos:

I expect that In Flames really thinks this is a great album, probably their best. After the recording of it they probably sat around in the studio listening to the final mix and gave each other high-fives. I can already hear them congratulating themselves on “progressing” and bringing their music to a “new audience.” I can hear them grinning about being “experimental” and “breaking out of the mold.” Such blindness affects bands on their second- to-last or last albums, which I expect this will probably be. We condemn bands who sell out as if they made a conscious decision to do so, whereas the truth is that they probably don’t even realize they’re selling out. If In Flames deny that REROUTE TO REMAIN is a dagger in the back of true Gothenburg metal fans, it’s not because they’re trying to sell you a spurious bill of goods; it’s because they’ve lost the capacity to realize that’s what they’ve done. So in a way you can’t blame them.

GZ

 

[Creeps]

Well what I meant (General Zod - lol, now I can't get the Superman movie outta my head)... was that since Ozzfest does so well it really opens up a lot of doors in the industry & in people's minds to try out new bands and styles of music (granted, much more in the earlier stages of Ozzfest, but I'm guessing the next one will be crushing).

In the Tampa area of Florida at least, our stations would have never played System of a Down during the day before, that would take away from hearing "Enter Sandman" for the fortieth time that day... but since Ozzfest, we get to hear some heavier stuff now... not much, but it's a step in the right direction.

Since Ozzfest, the above radio station I mentioned now has some competition with a younger, more aggressive station.. yah they play more punk and nu-metal, but at least you won't hear Pink Floyd and Lynard Skynnard on that station.

Our area also has 2 classic rock stations, 1 sucks, 1 is pretty damn good sticking to a heavier classic rock style, while the other might shell out some sappy 60s music now & then (not my style).

Funny thing, the 1 classic station that kinda sucks is owned by the same company as the AOR station mentioned earlier... owned by the same company and basically have almost the same play-lists for 2 different stations. How lame is that?

so.. what I was getting at is the industry (a t leasst in my area) has to take notice of the thousands of people in the area that DO want to hear and DO want to see heavier music on the radion and in person. They can't just shrug it off anymore and say 'people don't wanna listen to that'... the industry people have to stop assuming they know everything just cause they got the job.

 

[nailbmb]

I agree w/ general zod's last post/article quote. I personnaly like the new In Flames (tho not nearly as much as the earlier ones) but i can see evidence of that article in the music. Dunno how many of you actually have the cd but if you read the lyrics and contemplate the artwork you get overwhelmed by two things:

1) that this band is trying something completely new and different for them.

and

2) they seem to be stuck in a loop creatively.

the 1st point is obvious to me, think of the album name (14 songs of conscious insanity?). Can't quote the lyrics from the tittle track directly but they basically say "hey, fuck you, i've gotta keep moving/pushing/growing or else i'll die".
I think that have done some growing with this album but it could have been in a better direction.

as for my second point, i caught this in the artwork 1st and then heard it in the music. The artwork is very nice and pretty (even inspiring at times) but it is basically the same thing over and over. Throught out the booklet we see those same humanoid forms distorted in different ways. The music seems to do this aswell.
There are two songs on the album that seem to have exactly the same chorus to me (can't remember which tho, ha). Furthermore, the song structures throughout the album resemble each other (very popy). Seems that they may have been too preoccupied with the concept to actually write groundbreaking material.

So yeah, i can visualize that scene 100%
I do feel kinda bad for the guys if that's the case tho. As a musician, it's hard to have an objective opinion on your own work. And if these guys have sold out by doing something that they truely believe to be the best for the music, well i dunno.