Bullshit

[JColtrane]

So I read a short little book a while ago called On Bullshit. It's written by Harry G. Frankfurt, the foremost philosopher at Princeton.

The main idea was the distinction between bullshitting and lying. Lying, Frankfurt argues, is to claim that you know the truth and state the opposite; bullshitting is to make no claim whatsoever on the truth and just say whatever will improve one's position.

No one has really written about bullshit before (that I know of), and we use the word all the time, and both lying and bullshitting are fairly salient in our culture, so knowledge of what they are is important. To me this distinction was enlightening, as I think it is in general a true distinction. What do y'all think? Did this voice a distinction that was already in your head, but is now concrete? Or do you disagree?

 

[Imp!]

Maybe a link to an article will help?

Anyway, interesting topic, I think "bullshitting" is how 90% of students get through the school system, nobody knows a damned thing but everyone seems to be graduating, and with an "A" average at that...

That's my piece, neat topic, I hate the "bullshitters" in class, but I realize they are just clawing for the edge, so maybe it's just a way to survive...

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Yeah, I think there's a fair deal of societal relevance in this theory of bullshit. It does annoy me, as a philosopher, how many vacuous, digressive, and unjustified arguments people tend to make in serious debates.

Of course, it's natural for people to think they're right, and to do whatever they can to make themselves sound justified when their views are challenged. Most people, though, are really bad at thinking critically about their beliefs, and the beliefs of others.

It would be nice if our education system actually put more emphasis on critical thinking, but unfortunately, as Imp pointed out, teachers are often far too willing to pass on students who bullshit their way through graded essays simply to fill a page requirement that the teacher has set forth. It doesn't get much better in college, either.

 

[JColtrane]

Maybe a link to an article will help?

Anyone who actually says that they read those articles is bullshitting

 

[Blowtus]

I think the terms are highly interchangeable myself.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Bullshit is a term that is used fairly randomly. Sometimes someone is accused of talking bullshit when they clearly believe in what they are saying and are not attempting to mislead anyone and the accuser knows this but merely disagrees with them.
Eg. "This shirt suits me"
"bullshit"

This thread is bullshit really isn't it?

 

[JColtrane]

I think the terms are highly interchangeable myself.

In practicality, I think you're right. But ideally it would be great if we had different terms for these two concepts, and that's what I think Frankfurt is trying to create.

And it is ironic that any discussion about bullshit is likely to develop into just that

 

[Έρεβος]

The distinction is nothing but semantics ...

 

[JColtrane]

As I said before: the distinction is an abstract one, but that is no reason to say that it shouldn't be made concrete.

 

[Justin S.]

A quick google came up with videos of him discussing it: http://press.princeton.edu/video/frankfurt/

From what I've seen, it's a straightforward little work- "bullshit" is potentially more dangerous than lying, because the liar has a conception of truth that he knowingly violates (for some end), whereas the "bullshiter" is unconcerned with (possibly oblivious to) truth (the relation to truth being irrelevant). Where it gets more interesting is how society creates spaces for bullshiting (despite the unconcern for truth) that are deemed acceptable, even necessary, for certain relationships, etc.

This seems to have some merit to it and is intuitive, despite it being "philosophy-lite".

 

[JColtrane]

This seems to have some merit to it and is intuitive, despite it being "philosophy-lite".

My thoughts exactly.

 

[infoterror]

Lying, Frankfurt argues, is to claim that you know the truth and state the opposite; bullshitting is to make no claim whatsoever on the truth and just say whatever will improve one's position.

The original meaning of to bullshit was to engage in anecdotal education and entertainment, so "bullshitting is to make no claim whatsoever on the truth and just say whatever will improve the narrative."

Example: The fish was as wide as mah arms!

Reality: 1.82ft fish.