CDs: The 1st Half vs. the 2nd Half?

Nah, I can think of some superior second halves right away~

Transcendence

The Fullness of time is a good example:

Yes, tracks 1-4 have Sapphire on its side if you split it 1-4 and 5-8. And, If I could only have one song from this album it would be Sapphire with Transcendence in a close second. But look at it this way. In length of time, tracks 1-3 are almost = in total length to the fullness of time suite tracks
5-8 so I say, take sapphire out of the equation and I think its hard to say 1-3 is better than 5-8.

1. Threads - 5:43
2. Parker's Eyes - 6:15
3. Scarred - 7:56
4. Sapphire - 15:55
5. The Fullness of Time I: Rage - 5:01
6. The Fullness of Time II: Despair - 3:20
7. The Fullness of Time III: Release - 5:16
8. The Fullness of Time IV: Transcendence - 7:59

* The Fullness of Time total length: 21:36

Oh yeah, Also, Symphony X The Odyssey is also a last track and a brilliant one.
 
Remembering back to my cassette days, I agree with Zod that most of the albums seem to have the better music in the beginning or side A. With the advent of the mp3 player, however, I don't recognize this as much, only because I am usually shuffling these days.
 
I think it's safe to say the norm is that the first half is solid.
The leadoff track is usually an attention grabber.
Track 2 usually keeps momentum.
Track 3 is usually the first "departure" track.
Often Track 4 is the "Epic" track, or often the "single"

Also, now with the CD format, many bands jam in more songs than necessary.

I would rather have 8 solid songs coming in at 45 to 50 minutes, than 77 minutes of 12 songs where 4 are filler.
 
On the rare disc where I prefer the first half, I find this is generally because I like those songs better. However, most of the music I have, I can listen to the entire disc and enjoy most of, if not all of the tracks.
 
Agreed. I think bands often feel obligated to give you 12 songs, even if 4 of those songs aren't up to par.

This seems to be the case with many bands on Century Media, Nuc Blast, etc.

Ride The Lightning and Master of Puppets are true metal "classics" because each have 8 SOLID tracks.

You know, it's funny. It seems we are getting down to the fact that with IPODS and what not, it equates to less and less people listening to FULL albums, yet many bands still pile on 12 or more songs onto an album.

If anything else, having less songs on an album would make downloading the FULL album more desireable, since at 99 cents a track, you could get the whole thing for under $10.
 
There are definitely examples where the second half is stronger, as you and others have pointed out. But my question was more about the norm, if one exists.

Yeah, I got that from your post and I know 2 examples does not a argument make. I was just pointing 2 out for the hell of it. There are strong examples all day long of strong front loaded albums and strong back loaded albums. I ultimately believe it comes down to familiarity. You also have to throw a little personal preference in there cause you and I could take the same album and one us find one side stronger and and the other find the other stronger.
 
Here's to hoping I don't get yelled at, but I think half of one CD being better than the other comes down to personal preference and familiarity. I haven't really noticed an album where it was stacked completely on one side or the other. I tend to like songs from all over CDs. When I have time I love to sit and listen to an album in its entirety, but a lot of times it's just not possible.
 
Just to clarify something... I wasn't talking about skipping tracks. I never do that, unless like eppst1 suggested, the artist has a track of just pure noise. Regardless, the thread was not intended to be about listening to the entire disc in a single sitting or not. The question was about consistent quality throughout, and whether you notice a difference between the 1st half and 2nd half of a disc.

Ahhh... gotcha. I don't notice a differences between the 1st half and second half of a disc for quality.
 
It occurs to me, that 99% of the time I prefer the 1st half of a CD to the 2nd half. I've never been certain why.

Do you really mean "99%"? I'm guessing that's an exaggeration, so do you have a non-exaggerated estimate? I just looked at the first 20 albums in my iTunes database and made a snap judgement on whether I prefer the first half, second half, or can't tell.

First:2
Second:3
Neither: 15

My gut feel before doing this marginally-more-scientific check was that I don't have a strong preference, but when averaging over a very large sample space, first half might slightly win out over second half due to your hypothesis #1 (artists loading the front half with stuff they think is better). So my 20-album check generally supported that idea.

Additionally, I feel that if I averaged my whole collection, the front halves of albums (particularly the first 4 tracks or so) would get a slightly higher-than-average rating, then there would be a dip in the middle/second-half, only to shoot up again on the final track or two, which for me, are often the best songs on the whole record (they're often where an epic/expansive/moody/experimental song goes, and that's the stuff I most like).

1. The first half is the stronger half. Bands put their strongest songs towards the front, in order to grab the listener's attention.

I think in the long term average, this probably holds some weight, but the overall effect is fairly minor relative to the other possibilities. This is still music we're talking about, where there is no objective truth, so the idea of "strongest songs" is still just an opinion. Even if it's the band's opinion. They could have shit for taste. (e.g. Jon Schaffer disliking 'Burnt Offerings'. What a dumbass!) Furthermore, what makes a song "good" in terms of selling records (punchy, short, simple, repetitive) may be the exact opposite of what makes a "good" song over long-term listening. But, within a particular style, there is at least *some* consensus on what is "good" and what is "boring", so that's why this effect isn't totally cancelled out by randomness.

2. Familiarity. I find I listen to the 1st half of a CD more frequently. Whether it's because I'm in the car, at the gym, at work or listening before bed, I rarely have time to make it through an entire CD.

First, just a mechanical question. Is there something that keeps you from re-starting an album from where you left off? I thought you were mostly using an electronic music player? When I'm leaving home or work, I just pause/stop my PC-based player, and then pick it back up when I return. Same with the car, my phone plays until I unplug it, and then after a day at work listening to other stuff, I continue on with that morning's album for the drive home. And I thought even modern CD players remember your spot on power-down?

Since I don't have a strong front/back preference, AND I always listen to albums in their entirety, I don't have much standing to judge the effects of partial listening. But by reading the responses in the thread and trying to correlate front-preference with partial-listening-preference, it seems that there may be a correlation there. Particularly when reading people say how changing listening modes (shuffle, etc.) can change their opinions on songs.

When music fans are whining about record companies and trying to justify their own behavior, you'll often hear the line "They trick you into buying the album, but you find it only has two good songs, and then a load of filler!" I've always thought this was mostly nonsense, given that one man's trash is another man's treasure, so the concept of "filler" isn't really a viable one. I think the real truth is that people greatly underestimate the effect of repetition on their affinity for a song, and thus, the "singles" they listened to on the radio/YouTube a bunch of times initially seem much better than everything else on the album, and if they then continue to focus solely on those songs, the rest of the songs have no chance to catch up. Some of the posts here seem to support that idea, and then preferring the first half of an album is just an extension of that effect.

(edit: conveniently, this meshes nicely with what I wrote about in your Iron Maiden thread a little while back. When Iron Maiden plays their new stuff in concert, they're effectively forcing you to "listen to the entire album", and thus gain an appreciation for songs that they know you'll grow to like, but wouldn't explore without their prodding.)

3. The style grows tiresome. The music most bands write lacks diversity. Consequently, the songs begin to run together as the disc goes on.

This certainly must have some effect, but probably not a great one. And if you were doing a specific survey as I described above, this effect should actually disappear, since, when asking "do I like track #8 more or less than track #1?", getting tired of the sound won't factor in, since you actually aren't listening to the album.

4. Attention Deficit Disorder. Like most Americans, I have the attention span of house fly and all but 10/10 discs have any chance of holding my attention.

I think this is just a restatement and combination of issues #2 and #3.

So I'll give 60% of the effect to #2, and 20% to #1 and #3.

One scary corollary to this is that it makes it very difficult to talk helpfully to each other about music. When we talk about how good an album is, we may be effectively talking about two entirely different things...you could be talking about tracks #1-#4, while I'm talking about tracks #1-12. Depending on where the "good" songs are located, our opinions on "the album" could be very different, even when our tastes are exactly the same.

Neil
 
Here's to hoping I don't get yelled at, but I think half of one CD being better than the other comes down to personal preference and familiarity.
Familiarity was one of the options, and you may be right. However, I do suspect if a band knows they have a catchy, killer track on their hands, their more likely to put it at the front of the disc. I don't think it's coincidence, that often the first single is one of the first few tracks on the disc.
 
As briefly mentioned, CD length I believe is the main issue in that CD's are far too long overall. The perfect presentation of music leaves you wanting more when it is finished. I always have felt that the perfect album is between 40 and 45 minutes long. At 60+ minutes I tend to get bored more times than not.

In regards to formatting the song pacing on an album or a CD. Artists, in general, do seem to move the stronger songs forward on the CD adding far too many bonus tracks than needed.
With albums you generally had a more balanced presentation with a strong lead and finishing song on side one, and a strong lead and a closing song on side two. I do find often the song chronology choices on many CD's could be so much better if they formatted more so as if it were a two sided album.
 
Do you really mean "99%"? I'm guessing that's an exaggeration, so do you have a non-exaggerated estimate? I just looked at the first 20 albums in my iTunes database and made a snap judgement on whether I prefer the first half, second half, or can't tell.
99% is an exaggeration. However, I would say it fits the 80/20 rule.

My gut feel before doing this marginally-more-scientific check was that I don't have a strong preference, but when averaging over a very large sample space, first half might slightly win out over second half due to your hypothesis #1 (artists loading the front half with stuff they think is better). So my 20-album check generally supported that idea.
I knew I could count on you to actually introduce some research into this debate. :loco:

I think in the long term average, this probably holds some weight, but the overall effect is fairly minor relative to the other possibilities. This is still music we're talking about, where there is no objective truth, so the idea of "strongest songs" is still just an opinion. Even if it's the band's opinion. They could have shit for taste. (e.g. Jon Schaffer disliking 'Burnt Offerings'. What a dumbass!) Furthermore, what makes a song "good" in terms of selling records (punchy, short, simple, repetitive) may be the exact opposite of what makes a "good" song over long-term listening. But, within a particular style, there is at least *some* consensus on what is "good" and what is "boring", so that's why this effect isn't totally cancelled out by randomness.
Agreed.

First, just a mechanical question. Is there something that keeps you from re-starting an album from where you left off?
Mostly that I listen to different music at different times, depending on mood. For instance, at the gym I listen primarily to Power Metal and Death Metal. In bed, I listen to Black Metal. In the house, it's stuff the wife also appreciates (Prog Metal, Power Metal, Stoner and Lo-Fi). In the car, it varies widely. Now add into that equation my short attention span, and I rarely feel like hearing the same thing now, that I did three hours ago, unless I'm hung up on a new release that's kicking my ass.

Since I don't have a strong front/back preference, AND I always listen to albums in their entirety, I don't have much standing to judge the effects of partial listening.
Always? So if you're listening to a CD now, you get a phone call, it turns out you have to leave, and you return home 10 hours later, you restart the last disc you were listening to at the point when you received that phone call? Can I assume "always" is the same level of exaggeration as my 99%?

When music fans are whining about record companies and trying to justify their own behavior, you'll often hear the line "They trick you into buying the album, but you find it only has two good songs, and then a load of filler!" I've always thought this was mostly nonsense, given that one man's trash is another man's treasure, so the concept of "filler" isn't really a viable one.
Completely disagree. While music can not be scientifically proven to be good or bad, that doesn't mean bands don't create filler. We could likely get into a long debate on this. However, I believe bands do release albums with material that they believe is substandard, just to have a complete album. Now I understand that you can argue that there are people who may love those tracks. True. However, I'm still applying the 80/20 rule. If the band views it as filler, and the overwhelming majority of their fans concur, I'm calling it filler.

I think the real truth is that people greatly underestimate the effect of repetition on their affinity for a song, and thus, the "singles" they listened to on the radio/YouTube a bunch of times initially seem much better than everything else on the album, and if they then continue to focus solely on those songs, the rest of the songs have no chance to catch up.
I agree.

So I'll give 60% of the effect to #2...
I'd say 60% is a fair assessment.

One scary corollary to this is that it makes it very difficult to talk helpfully to each other about music. When we talk about how good an album is, we may be effectively talking about two entirely different things...you could be talking about tracks #1-#4, while I'm talking about tracks #1-12. Depending on where the "good" songs are located, our opinions on "the album" could be very different, even when our tastes are exactly the same.
I guess that depends on the depth of the conversation, and whether or not you get into speaking about the release in specific terms.
 
I wonder if some of the band members who have been around a while could fill us in on their thinking here. I think it may have been different back in the days of cassettes and albums - when the second side always seemed to start off strong as well. It seems that the songs were broken up differently to catch your attention right off the bat no matter which side you happened to put on. Of course that was back in the days of yore when you had to do things like flip and album or tape :)
 
Mostly that I listen to different music at different times, depending on mood.

Understood.

Always? So if you're listening to a CD now, you get a phone call, it turns out you have to leave, and you return home 10 hours later, you restart the last disc you were listening to at the point when you received that phone call? Can I assume "always" is the same level of exaggeration as my 99%?

"Always" may have been an exaggeration, but a very tiny one. 99% might actually be accurate. Of course, I have all the data, so if you'd like an exact number, I can write a query to calculate it. :loco: But as a quick example, for Sentenced's "The Cold White Light", there is no track that I've listened to fewer than 39 times, and none more than 43. Tracks #1, #2, #11, and #12 all have 40 listens. Track #13 is the one with 43, because as I mentioned earlier, I tend to love closing tracks, and "The End of the Road" is surely a great one. The other variability in those numbers is probably just from pausing/stopping a song before it had a chance to get properly recorded as "played", not because I like tracks #4-8 (with 41 plays) 2.5% more. And that album is a very typical example for me.

I think my listening environments/constraints are less variable than yours, but also, I like to actively fight the "black metal at night, power metal in the day" rut. If I always listen to music in the same environment, I'll always hear it the same way. So listening to things in unplanned environments is a way to broaden my experience and let the music influence me, rather than the other way around. Though yes, I still do reach for certain types of music in certain types of moods, and I have no problem killing something if it's not working for me at that time.

Completely disagree. While music can not be scientifically proven to be good or bad, that doesn't mean bands don't create filler. We could likely get into a long debate on this.

Done! :)

I guess that depends on the depth of the conversation, and whether or not you get into speaking about the release in specific terms.

Yeah, if it gets down to specifics, then it's not a problem, but that's fairly rare these days on Internet music forums. Lately, I seem to take a "critical mass of citations" approach to checking out new stuff. When a particular album is mentioned enough times as part of a top-10 list, or a "this album rocks!" post, then I might give a listen. But that recommendation system comes with very little discussion of why or how the album rocks, so it's more risky.

Neil
 
I have to agree with you. I do the same thing. I think also a new trend is that since there are more downloaders now they are not listening to the whole disc as it was intended too. Some songs work better in the stucture they are placed on the disc. I think also what ends up happening is that people gravitate to the more catchier songs first and forget the ones that need to grow on you. For some reason bands do seem to always put the more 'listener freindly" songs early on in the disc.

I too am one of the types who rather see some of the obscure tracks played live. For example.....Edguy. They have such a great back catalog but seem to play the same songs every night. I would love to hear "Spooks in the Attic" and other songs live.


I think you've hit it on the button. Even though I'm not a downloader, all my cds get uploaded digitally and then put on the ipod. I listen to the ipod on random so I can hear a variety of things (and I def skip songs depending on mood, plus you can't have Phantom of the Opera come on after Opeth ;)). But this means that an album can't be listened to in order. This certainly hurts some discs like PoS' BE. I like it though because it gives me a chance to randomly get what I might not find otherwise in my collection.

As far as front loading, I suspect that the general consensus that this occurs is accurate, but I feel it is missing something else. I think that based on some genres some discs are back loaded as well. And this cannot be discounted (bands like to end well too). You can get a soft middle (ie see filler discussions) but I don't think you can knock the second half of a disc for that.

More examples:
Dream Theater - BCSL (Best of Times and Count of Tuscany)
Pain of Salvaiton - BE (Iter Impius Martiganea, Nihilum)
Orphaned Land - Mabool (Mabool and Storm)
Threshold - Dead Reckoning (One Degree - though the middle of the this disc rules!!!)
Redemption - TFoT, SFoJD, nuff said
Edguy - ToS (ToS)
Symphony X - Odessey (Odessey)
Communic - Waves of Visual Decay (Dewey Prime!)
Kiuas - New Dark Age (Wanderer)
Ayreon - all the albums end epiclly
Kamelot - Black Halo (Memento Mori, Nothing)
 
But as a quick example, for Sentenced's "The Cold White Light", there is no track that I've listened to fewer than 39 times, and none more than 43. Tracks #1, #2, #11, and #12 all have 40 listens. Track #13 is the one with 43, because as I mentioned earlier, I tend to love closing tracks, and "The End of the Road" is surely a great one.
Wow. That's a lot of listens. How many discs would you say you play in a typical day?

I think my listening environments/constraints are less variable than yours, but also, I like to actively fight the "black metal at night, power metal in the day" rut.
While mine aren't hard and fast rules, it's just a matter of what I feel like at that moment. But I can see what you're saying about listening in a different light.
 
I listen to all of my physical CDs while driving to/from work, etc. so I can honestly say I listen to probably 95% or more of the CDs straight through. When I get out of the car, I stop the CD and then restart it at the point it left off until it's done. While I'm at work and I'm listening to my iPod I tend to put it on shuffle about maybe 80% of the time. The other 20% is reserved for times when I have a hankering for a particular band and/or album and even then I almost always listen to the album all the way through.
 
I find that if the band is one of my favorites, I tend to notice less if the disc is front-loaded with good songs or not simply due to the sheer amount of times I'll listen to the albums. Stuff I listen to less often, it becomes more apparent if there's a bunch of good stuff at the beginning and the album loses steam by the end.

Oddly enough, the first album that came to mind when I saw this thread was Pagan's Mind - God's Equation. That album has some great tunes on it but for me it starts to wear out around track 7.

Nocturnal Rites has that same effect on 8th Sin with me. Every song is basically a syrupy single and it's cool for the first 3 tracks or so but the effect wears off as quickly as it comes on.