Changing perception of guitar tones is driving me nuts!

[abyssofdreams]

I'm sure this is very familiar to all of you.

One day you listen to a record and say to yourself: "Whoa, this guitar tone is really nice!" Some other day (assuming you've gained experience in training your ears and such) you'll realize that tone isn't so pleasurable like you thought the last time you listened to it.

Oddly enough I always have this just with guitars, never drums, vocals or bass and so on. Why is that?

I'm not talking about an intense mixing session but the overall perception of tones across everything you listen to apart from heavy ear exposure. I'm feeling this perception of what sounds "good" and the likes is getting worse with each day I hope to progress in terms of engineering. Currently every album I listen to...the mixes do generally sound great but the guitars I don't know... I feel like I'm having less of an idea of what I'm listening to.

I think the issue that has been pointed out quite often on the boards is that there seems to be some sort of trade-off to be taken into account, which is:

Hunting a tone that works perfectly in a mix and doesn't suck on its own at the same time. That IMHO is crucial in getting a really good tone, subjective tastes put aside.

But where to start? I see that every big engineer we look up to approaches things very different so I'm kinda lost as to which parts I'd have to pay attention to without losing perspective.

The thing is, many suggest to mix without soloing tracks too much and mix with everything going but on the other hand not to use too much eq and compression to not screw up the tone too much. It is very interesting to observe, that with each session I use less and less post-processing with my tones which should be a good sign as I work on my source tones more and get a better idea right from the start but still I feel like I'm hunting in wrong directions. Like I'm stuck in a cul-de-sac so to speak.

Any idea if that is just a phase I have to get used to or that I can bypass/outlast somehow? It starts to block my creativity whilst mixing and certainly makes me question more things that I probably should.

 

[ahjteam]

I usually only have this problem with hard rock, punk and metal music variants, because of the high gain nature of the guitarsound. When you start to stack them, they usually turn out really unpleasant. And the fact that there usually is too much everything and the music doesn't breathe, and the brickwall limiting doesn't help in anyway.

Metallicas "Black" album, Faith No Mores "King for a day, fool for a lifetime" and Tools "Lateralus" are still one of my all time favourite albums everythingwise. Evidence, Sad But True and The Grudge All of those albums have been mastered at -14dB RMS btw. All the modern metal albums usually are mastered at -9dB RMS and Death Magnetic is -6dB. I really don't see the reason. If I want it louder or quieter, I just turn the volume knob. It's usually so that I have to turn the volume knob down instead of up.

But I really have to say that I really liked the guitar tone on the new Major Label album. They recorded their first album thru Peavey Triple XXX, on this one they used Vox AC30 as their main amp and the Peavy to give it some meat. At first I kinda hated it, because it wasn't so brutal in a primitive way, but I really have to say that I enjoyed it after a few spins because it's a lot less cluttered and more clear. But on the otherhand, it now sounds kinda emo

 

[Djabthrash]

Faith No Mores "King for a day, fool for a lifetime"

(songs, performance, production)

 

[musickey]

(songs, performance, production)

Funny, that album has been in my car for the last week.

 

[abyssofdreams]

Anyone else wanna chime in?

 

[blackbird]

I Faith No Mores "King for a day, fool for a lifetime"

Awesome sound!notworthy

 

[abyssofdreams]

onatopicplleeeeeeeeeeeeeeez

 

[-J-]

I think of it like The Truman Show's main message - we are typically accepting of the reality that is placed in front of us. when you start questioning things, it can get a lot more complicated. Seems like a lot of people here like to listen to albums with the ear to "fix" something. Maybe things don't always need fixing.

 

[Cryo114]

I dont know if this is going to be any help but, I found that in the last year or so I've taken less notice of tone (In a sense of EQ) and paid more attention to the guitar tones behaviour. eg how much note I'm hearing, how thick the grain in the sound is and if its predictable or organic. I also dont assume its the tones fault if a guitar part doesnt sit, because often with me its not. Its the riff, the timing or the tuning that doesn't really work with something in the track.

Then I record a lot and make a shitload of mistakes, but thats no bother because its all practice, on the occations that something works well, I tend to try and of think why that worked and others don't and then learn from it.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Such change in perception is almost inevitable. I suffer from the exact same thing - record something today, feel ecstatic about it and a month later it sounds like crap.
The main reason for this to happen is due to our mindset. When I listen to the guitar tone of an album done by the big guys they always sound fantastic, even if it's the Judas Priest 'Rocka Rolla' album. But my stuff, I can't praise them long enough.

Human psychology can be a b**** at times. I know I'm an amateur in the sound engineering field, and my mind's always telling me that I'm learning. So subconsciously, as time passes by a layer "skepticism" gets embedded into my mind. The result: my work in the past turns inferior to my work in the present. Like attracts like. When I believe that I'm gonna improve I'm subconsciously embedding the fact that my previous work is gonna suck a while from now. It's obvious - when we make something better the previous stuff turns inferior without us even knowing. Ponder upon this and it'll make sense in the long run.

Now about the mystery why the guitar tones produced by the big guys always seem fantastic no matter what - It's simple. When I look upto them as if they are Gods, my perception would never change. To me, that's the ultimate tone. My mind isn't really attracting any "change of perspective" when I listen to them.

Do this: Pop in Trivium's Shogun. At first you may think that the tone is perfect. But listen to it over and over again. Literally meditate over the album and think to yourself, "Hmm, the guitar tone lacks the bite" and truely believe in what you said. You'd be surprised soon. I experimented on that, and now I think the guitar tone is way too smooth. *I do regret it, though*

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Now for the solution (never 100%, but enough to keep you satisfied). Use reference material. Limit your reference materials to the genre you are working on. Make up your mind of what kind of a tone you really want. If you want an Old-Skool Heavy Metal sound, would it be really wise to go for anything other than the Marshall JCM series or similar? Why the hell would you wanna use a Dual Rect for it? *Unless you're looking for a different sound. But really, now is not the time*

1. Choose the correct tone before tracking. But keep the pre-processing really really mind. No more than a 4 band EQ (mild!), and maybe some compression/gate. But this should be just the tone you want. Basically, follow the "simplicity is the best policy" rule. Guitars are such instruments that don't LIKE major tweaks, especially in rock/metal music.

2. After tracking, use hipass and lowpass EQ according to taste. I wouldn't suggest that you keep anything below 80hz and above 12khz. But then again, your taste is what's important here.

3. Record 2 or 4 tracks. Never post process before you actually have 2 or 4 tracks lined up.

4. Solo the tracks, and use a spectrum and stereo image analyzer (Like the Waves PAZ Analyzer). See if the guitars are wide enough. And DEFINITELY look for spikes. What you need to do now is get rid of HUM, HONK and FUZZ. Getting rid of these are mandatory for anything ---->



Use a good EQ and notch the spikes out by -12db with a Q of 6.5.

>Below 250Hz. Try to get rid of 3 to 5 spikes in that region. That would get rid of hum that would otherwise make your tone muffled.

> Look for about 1 or 2 spikes around the 900hz area. Notch them out, and that would give your tone much more clarity, reducing the honk.

> Above 4khz to 11khz. Notch out around 4 or 5 spikes in the region to get rid of fuzz.

> Terminate everything above 11khz

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Now, that was more of a production hint rather than a "music psychology" hint- But it's related if you take a bird's eye view - it's all for helping your mind develop and hold subconsciously the fact that You are a great sound-engineer. Of course, it's gonna take some time. Keep on working this way. Oh and yes, experiment, experiment and experiment. Be the God of your own mind.

Best of luck and let me know when you notice a difference, and I'm gonna inform you when I do.

Cheers!

p.s. The f****** plectrum matters. Trust me. I typically use plectrum of either 0.99mm or 0.96mm. And of course, play as clearly as possible. A sloppy pick hand would generate noise which the mind would eventually interpret as being "part of the tone"

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Something that happened recently:

I had an old crt monitor (6 yrs old) that started flickering and making a really irritating hiss. I could never work in the room. It seemed as if it was driving me mad. 2-3 days later I could still hear the hiss but it seemed normal to me. In fact, when I'd turn the monitor off it would seem as if something's missing :S
Later, a few friends of mine came by for a visit and they couldn't stay in that room They told me they felt as if someone was poking them with a needle into their ears.
Basically, I got used to it. heh!
The human mind can be a b****.

Oh well, I threw it away anyways.
And no, I didnt damage my hearing. I turned it on again before throwing it away, that too after a week of not using it. And I felt irritated again

 

[-J-]

good tips, I gotta print that out /\/\/\/\

 

[guitarded88]

That was great. I dunno what it is about this forum and people going on "helpful rants" but they make life so much easier for us who are not so knowledgeable.

Thanks for the tips.

 

[exoslime]

i noticed the same, with each new track i do, i make things better, and when i listen to stuff that i did a a few months ago i find the old recordings horrible. a year ago, it was great in comparission of what i did 2 years ago.
BUT, since a few months, when i discovered this board here, my learning curve gained drastically

@Maamar Huq
thank you very much for your post and hints!! very appreciated, and this shows how great this board and its members is

cheers
exoslime

 

[John_C]

The f****** plectrum matters. Trust me. I typically use plectrum of either 0.99mm or 0.96mm. And of course, play as clearly as possible. A sloppy pick hand would generate noise which the mind would eventually interpret as being "part of the tone"

FUCKING AMEN!!!!!
Just listen to machine head - the blackening and chimaira - chimaira
soo much whucka whucka pick noise, and a lot of that is down to the choice of pick and how it's wielded.
Beware making a guitarist change pick though, as i guitarist i know that it takes a good few hours before i can get the best tone out of any pick

And yeah i totally agree about shogan, no bite to the guitars at all, and the whole thing is nastily brickwalled, losing even more of the clarity

 

[exoslime]

something came to my mind right now,
yesterday something strange happened, as usual i was playing my "silent setup"
guitar > damage control demonizer > mackie onyx > headphones.
i really like the tone usually, its not metal, more for hardrock. nevermind..
then my wife told me to rehearse a few songs with her, lucky for me, time to turn on the roadking.. yeah, massive sound
after the rehearsal, later on, i had to switch back to the demonizer, and wtf, how crappy is that sound..uke:
45min before that exactly same sound was great for me...

 

[Metaltastic]

something came to my mind right now,
yesterday something strange happened, as usual i was playing my "silent setup"
guitar > damage control demonizer > mackie onyx > headphones.
i really like the tone usually, its not metal, more for hardrock. nevermind..
then my wife told me to rehearse a few songs with her, lucky for me, time to turn on the roadking.. yeah, massive sound
after the rehearsal, later on, i had to switch back to the demonizer, and wtf, how crappy is that sound..uke:
45min before that exactly same sound was great for me...

You've just illustrated how essential reference mixes/tones are! I now have a constantly-updated word document with all of mine!

 

[Ermz]

The impression that I've got from talking to you over the weeks is that you don't really know deep down what sort of tone you're after.

The very most you can ever really do with guitar tones is find one that works for the band/situation at hand. Most guys have 'go-to' approaches that get them results which work as part of their mixes. I've stumbled on varying dual mic techniques because I hate the way cabs sound in person. I want the phase interactions with both mics to cancel out the fizzy tops and give me a meaty tone (ala Clayman, though we've discussed this already!).

The important thing is how well the tone works with the bass and kick to give you that punch and density that you're after. From what I can tell, you certainly don't want to go the Bergstrand route of guitar sounds, nor do you want the Sneap one. Your approach would lie somewhere in line with my own, where you experiment with multiple mics to shape and tailor the tone into something denser, less real to life, yet somehow better.

It's inevitable that your tastes and perceptions of tones will change over time. Either due to developing a more critical ear, or one that focuses on different aspects of tone. However you tend to be jumping from sound to sound erratically, in a frantic search to find something that works for you. That to me says that you haven't really found the core characteristics that you're after. As I've told you, the only solution is to ditch the amp modeling and start recording real amps (with more than 1 mic!!) so you can take the battle to another area. With Revalver the issue is simply making it sound convincing or 'alive' in the midrange and upper mids. With real amps it's a matter of taming and tailoring a natural sound into something that works as part of the mix spectrum.

 

[The-Zeronaut]

good tips, I gotta print that out ////

me too !!

awesome tips

 

[Metaltastic]

Ermz, I'm assuming the "Bergstrand" method is making weird fucking tones that are totally unusual and generally crappy on their own, but pretty deadly in the mix - what's the Sneap method IYO?

 

[abyssofdreams]

The impression that I've got from talking to you over the weeks is that you don't really know deep down what sort of tone you're after.

The very most you can ever really do with guitar tones is find one that works for the band/situation at hand. Most guys have 'go-to' approaches that get them results which work as part of their mixes. I've stumbled on varying dual mic techniques because I hate the way cabs sound in person. I want the phase interactions with both mics to cancel out the fizzy tops and give me a meaty tone (ala Clayman, though we've discussed this already!).

The important thing is how well the tone works with the bass and kick to give you that punch and density that you're after. From what I can tell, you certainly don't want to go the Bergstrand route of guitar sounds, nor do you want the Sneap one. Your approach would lie somewhere in line with my own, where you experiment with multiple mics to shape and tailor the tone into something denser, less real to life, yet somehow better.

It's inevitable that your tastes and perceptions of tones will change over time. Either due to developing a more critical ear, or one that focuses on different aspects of tone. However you tend to be jumping from sound to sound erratically, in a frantic search to find something that works for you. That to me says that you haven't really found the core characteristics that you're after. As I've told you, the only solution is to ditch the amp modeling and start recording real amps (with more than 1 mic!!) so you can take the battle to another area. With Revalver the issue is simply making it sound convincing or 'alive' in the midrange and upper mids. With real amps it's a matter of taming and tailoring a natural sound into something that works as part of the mix spectrum.

Thanks a ton man. Yeah, you're dead on with your post. Actually I do mic cabs quite often, just not as frequent and regular as I have time to spent with Revalver and such which is because I'm mostly at home and not at the place I have all my gear at and can't crank here

I'm sure it would help a lot to get accustomed to more mic'ed cab situations but in fact I was really just refering to tones I hear on professional and popular mixes which of course, have a mic'ed cab 95% of the time, at least the ones I picked out for myself.

The thing is...despite of searching for a genre-like tone that fits a certain type of music well... I'm coming to the conclusion that there seems no way to get the best of all the parts I would like to see in a tone. There always is a trade-off, I guess that is what I have to understand before digging any deeper.

But thanks for your certainly valid points, I can identify with them