Changing perception of guitar tones is driving me nuts!

Ermz, I'm assuming the "Bergstrand" method is making weird fucking tones that are totally unusual and generally crappy on their own, but pretty deadly in the mix - what's the Sneap method IYO?

I'm not Ermz but I'll tell you my opinion nonetheless :D

Most of Bergstrand tones have tons of upper mid content and are often overgained and fizzy...and cut through a mix, plus they often seem to have almost no low end at all, like an HP up to 120 or even more which gives a lot of room for the bass and kick to punch through.

Andy instead often focuses on a broadband guitar tone that is fat, cuts through and mainly create the essence of his sound which results in a bass tone that has more of a controlled midrange spectrum and is generally mixed a tad lower in the mix just so it complements the guitars, more like a seemless fit. I'm sure I'll get slayed for this :rolleyes:

In any ways, Andy and Danne have almost completely opposite approaches, so do Nordström, Madsen, Bogren and others have their specific approach.
They do have a signature across all their work which seems to be the magic formula, the key to their work.

Now, back to my main problem: It seems like I don't have a favourite tone. Every tone I listen to I feel like I can almost see where they had to compromise to sit in the mix better. The key would be to make as little changes as necessary so it wouldn't destroy the initial tone you want to work with. And that I find very, very hard. Maybe in the end it is really just a matter of taste.
 
Well one thing that comes to mind, Bernhard, is that you seem to feel your opinions can't change on what makes a good tone both by itself and in the mix, and so you feel you'll have to compromise on your enjoyment of one to get the most out of the other. But personally, I feel my opinion on tones (especially by themselves) has changed dramatically since I've been posting my clips on here and getting feedback, so that eventually I can see myself liking a tone equally both by itself and in the mix; it also helps that I'm a very "function over form" type of guy, so I see/hear beauty in things when I know of their incredible utility (this is especially true of my opinions on the aesthetics of cars).
 
However, that said, I don't think I'd ever find the beauty in a Bergstrand tone by itself if it's as you say (which I have no trouble believing, but I've never heard any of the guitar parts by themselves from like a Rock Band file or something) - that's just too extreme for me. But fortunately, his are hardly my absolute favorite mixes (though they're definitely good), so I don't feel like I'll be missing too much! :D
 
I can say what I don't like in a tone:

I don't like undergained tones, I don't like overgained tones. I don't like too much mud in the lowmids, I don't like too much mids and I don't like very scooped ones.

So... to rephrase this: Is there a metal record of the last few years that doesn't have a scooped or middy or lowmid-muddy or under/overgained tone in it? Which one?
 
Umm...one of Decapitated's two most recent albums, maybe? (personally, I prefer the tone on "The Negation," "Organic..." is a bit harsher IMO, but still awesome)
 
Cool, hope you dig one/both! (I also happen to prefer "The Negation" musically, but once again they're both awesome!)
 
Yeah, Organic is definitely slammed to be sure - check out the title track off of "The Negation," it's my favorite song on the album (especially the break at 3:08, my god - as if any chugga chugga hxc breakdown could touch the sheer brutality and awesomeness of that riff :worship: ) and a good tour de force for a similar (but less harsh) tone as Organic!
 
Wow, hard to believe you didn't have Organic Hallucinosis. I agree though the entire mix is on the hyped high-end side due to the crazy mastering. Distortion mania on that thing. One of the best extreme metal mixes of all time though, no doubt. A fair way, tonally, from our precious Clayman :)

I think the void you're finding is the niche you'd like to fill with your own work man. If nobody has nailed all the elements of a tone you like, it's down to you to do it. To get all those characteristics you want I'd say you'd be tailoring your tones both with multiple mics AND quad tracking with different amps. You can get a lot of different flavors that way, and who knows, you might find that 'magic' combo that creates the most wholesome tone.
 
I think of it like The Truman Show's main message - we are typically accepting of the reality that is placed in front of us. when you start questioning things, it can get a lot more complicated. Seems like a lot of people here like to listen to albums with the ear to "fix" something. Maybe things don't always need fixing.

I approve this way of thinking +1
 
holy shit man. i never do this much eq'ing to a guitar track, wtf! that reads like it would sound gross !!!

Such change in perception is almost inevitable. I suffer from the exact same thing - record something today, feel ecstatic about it and a month later it sounds like crap.
The main reason for this to happen is due to our mindset. When I listen to the guitar tone of an album done by the big guys they always sound fantastic, even if it's the Judas Priest 'Rocka Rolla' album. But my stuff, I can't praise them long enough.

Human psychology can be a b**** at times. I know I'm an amateur in the sound engineering field, and my mind's always telling me that I'm learning. So subconsciously, as time passes by a layer "skepticism" gets embedded into my mind. The result: my work in the past turns inferior to my work in the present. Like attracts like. When I believe that I'm gonna improve I'm subconsciously embedding the fact that my previous work is gonna suck a while from now. It's obvious - when we make something better the previous stuff turns inferior without us even knowing. Ponder upon this and it'll make sense in the long run.

Now about the mystery why the guitar tones produced by the big guys always seem fantastic no matter what - It's simple. When I look upto them as if they are Gods, my perception would never change. To me, that's the ultimate tone. My mind isn't really attracting any "change of perspective" when I listen to them.

Do this: Pop in Trivium's Shogun. At first you may think that the tone is perfect. But listen to it over and over again. Literally meditate over the album and think to yourself, "Hmm, the guitar tone lacks the bite" and truely believe in what you said. You'd be surprised soon. I experimented on that, and now I think the guitar tone is way too smooth. *I do regret it, though* :p

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Now for the solution (never 100%, but enough to keep you satisfied). Use reference material. Limit your reference materials to the genre you are working on. Make up your mind of what kind of a tone you really want. If you want an Old-Skool Heavy Metal sound, would it be really wise to go for anything other than the Marshall JCM series or similar? Why the hell would you wanna use a Dual Rect for it? *Unless you're looking for a different sound. But really, now is not the time*

1. Choose the correct tone before tracking. But keep the pre-processing really really mind. No more than a 4 band EQ (mild!), and maybe some compression/gate. But this should be just the tone you want. Basically, follow the "simplicity is the best policy" rule. Guitars are such instruments that don't LIKE major tweaks, especially in rock/metal music.

2. After tracking, use hipass and lowpass EQ according to taste. I wouldn't suggest that you keep anything below 80hz and above 12khz. But then again, your taste is what's important here.

3. Record 2 or 4 tracks. Never post process before you actually have 2 or 4 tracks lined up.

4. Solo the tracks, and use a spectrum and stereo image analyzer (Like the Waves PAZ Analyzer). See if the guitars are wide enough. And DEFINITELY look for spikes. What you need to do now is get rid of HUM, HONK and FUZZ. Getting rid of these are mandatory for anything ---->



Use a good EQ and notch the spikes out by -12db with a Q of 6.5.

>Below 250Hz. Try to get rid of 3 to 5 spikes in that region. That would get rid of hum that would otherwise make your tone muffled.

> Look for about 1 or 2 spikes around the 900hz area. Notch them out, and that would give your tone much more clarity, reducing the honk.

> Above 4khz to 11khz. Notch out around 4 or 5 spikes in the region to get rid of fuzz.

> Terminate everything above 11khz :p

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Now, that was more of a production hint rather than a "music psychology" hint- But it's related if you take a bird's eye view - it's all for helping your mind develop and hold subconsciously the fact that You are a great sound-engineer. Of course, it's gonna take some time. Keep on working this way. Oh and yes, experiment, experiment and experiment. Be the God of your own mind.

Best of luck and let me know when you notice a difference, and I'm gonna inform you when I do.

Cheers!

p.s. The f****** plectrum matters. Trust me. I typically use plectrum of either 0.99mm or 0.96mm. And of course, play as clearly as possible. A sloppy pick hand would generate noise which the mind would eventually interpret as being "part of the tone"

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Something that happened recently:

I had an old crt monitor (6 yrs old) that started flickering and making a really irritating hiss. I could never work in the room. It seemed as if it was driving me mad. 2-3 days later I could still hear the hiss but it seemed normal to me. In fact, when I'd turn the monitor off it would seem as if something's missing :S
Later, a few friends of mine came by for a visit and they couldn't stay in that room :p They told me they felt as if someone was poking them with a needle into their ears.
Basically, I got used to it. heh!
The human mind can be a b****.

Oh well, I threw it away anyways.
And no, I didnt damage my hearing. I turned it on again before throwing it away, that too after a week of not using it. And I felt irritated again