Civilisation is bad

Norsemaiden

barbarian
Dec 12, 2005
1,903
6
38
Britain
What do you think? Is civilisation bad?

There is no universally agreed definition of how civilisation is defined. But it seems to be generally agreed on by academics that cities, and urban development, are key to the definition. In fact the word "civilisation" is derived from the Latin word civis, meaning citizen. City life is at the heart of civilisation and is heavily populated compared with the other areas of the civilisation.

The word "civilised" has come to be associated in people's minds with positive terms such as: refined, polite, well-behaved, urbane, cultivated, gallant, educated - while the terms "uncivilised", "savage" or "barbaric" have all been turned into negative words.

As a result of this, it is a common false assumption that any organised society with values associated with the word "civilised" should qualify as being a civilisation. This would lead to the contradiction of barbarians such as the Germanics or Vikings being classified as civilised. They had small towns and villages, but no centralised city from which society was organised.

What at first seems an irony of today is that the most "savage" behaviour, as regards the association of this word with lack of refinement, education, and a tendency towards mindless violence is found overwhelmingly within cities (the very place where people are supposed to be most "civilised") rather than in the surrounding areas. Many people in today's cities are like the mob of ancient Rome, only interested in food and entertainment. This is because civilisations have a birth, middle-age and then decay and die. This degeneration is, by definition, a falling from a higher state.

Civilisations have always contained the seeds of their own destruction. Although they are initially created by intelligent, noble and creative people (barbarians!) they have always served to assist the dysgenic process of breeding increasing numbers of people who would never have survived without the crutch of civilisation. Eventually this leads to the civilisation weakening and falling apart. Historically, at this point, the barbarians have conquered the civilisation and had a purifying effect (such as the ancient Germanics did to Rome). This has, in turn, led to new civilisations being born.

In short, civilisation is bad because it causes people to become genetically weaker at a rapid rate, losing qualities such as physical and mental health and instinct - and condemning the society to a painful degeneration and death. It is also bad because it has led to the development of unsustainable, ecologically damaging behaviour (pollution, deforestation, etc). And because it draws many people into a dehumanising lifestyle, such as working in the assembly line of a factory for a slave wage. And because civilisations have ended up spreading so far that it would be nearly impossible for any tribe to escape its clutches. (Vaccinating natives, for eg, or plundering their resources). Even the overpopulation of the world is as a result of the excesses of civilisation and civilised values.

In the end, when world resources, which civilisations depend on, cease to be available, there will be war, suffering, starvation on a massive scale and ecological disaster. The remaining people will have no alternative but to go back to living in a primitive and sustainable way. We will be thrown back into a pre-civilised existence. However, this time there will be no natural metal, oil or coal to mine once again and to re-develop industry, as this will have all been used up. Industrialisation can never rise again once we have gone back to this stage - possibly stuck in a stoneage unless we could recycle previously used materials.

It's a shame really, because if the faults of civilisation were tackled: dysgenics and unsustainability, a whole different future would be possible; a potentially limitless progress rather than an inevitable decline.
 
Norsemaiden said:
What do you think? Is civilisation bad?

There is no universally agreed definition of how civilisation is defined. But it seems to be generally agreed on by academics that cities, and urban development, are key to the definition. In fact the word "civilisation" is derived from the Latin word civis, meaning citizen. City life is at the heart of civilisation and is heavily populated compared with the other areas of the civilisation.

The word "civilised" has come to be associated in people's minds with positive terms such as: refined, polite, well-behaved, urbane, cultivated, gallant, educated - while the terms "uncivilised", "savage" or "barbaric" have all been turned into negative words.

As a result of this, it is a common false assumption that any organised society with values associated with the word "civilised" should qualify as being a civilisation. This would lead to the contradiction of barbarians such as the Germanics or Vikings being classified as civilised. They had small towns and villages, but no centralised city from which society was organised.

What at first seems an irony of today is that the most "savage" behaviour, as regards the association of this word with lack of refinement, education, and a tendency towards mindless violence is found overwhelmingly within cities (the very place where people are supposed to be most "civilised") rather than in the surrounding areas. Many people in today's cities are like the mob of ancient Rome, only interested in food and entertainment. This is because civilisations have a birth, middle-age and then decay and die. This degeneration is, by definition, a falling from a higher state.

Civilisations have always contained the seeds of their own destruction. Although they are initially created by intelligent, noble and creative people (barbarians!) they have always served to assist the dysgenic process of breeding increasing numbers of people who would never have survived without the crutch of civilisation. Eventually this leads to the civilisation weakening and falling apart. Historically, at this point, the barbarians have conquered the civilisation and had a purifying effect (such as the ancient Germanics did to Rome). This has, in turn, led to new civilisations being born.

In short, civilisation is bad because it causes people to become genetically weaker at a rapid rate, losing qualities such as physical and mental health and instinct - and condemning the society to a painful degeneration and death. It is also bad because it has led to the development of unsustainable, ecologically damaging behaviour (pollution, deforestation, etc). And because it draws many people into a dehumanising lifestyle, such as working in the assembly line of a factory for a slave wage. And because civilisations have ended up spreading so far that it would be nearly impossible for any tribe to escape its clutches. (Vaccinating natives, for eg, or plundering their resources). Even the overpopulation of the world is as a result of the excesses of civilisation and civilised values.

In the end, when world resources, which civilisations depend on, cease to be available, there will be war, suffering, starvation on a massive scale and ecological disaster. The remaining people will have no alternative but to go back to living in a primitive and sustainable way. We will be thrown back into a pre-civilised existence. However, this time there will be no natural metal, oil or coal to mine once again and to re-develop industry, as this will have all been used up. Industrialisation can never rise again once we have gone back to this stage - possibly stuck in a stoneage unless we could recycle previously used materials.

It's a shame really, because if the faults of civilisation were tackled: dysgenics and unsustainability, a whole different future would be possible; a potentially limitless progress rather than an inevitable decline.

This is interesting. I need to think about it and respond later.
 
I should point out that when I say civilisation could have had limitless progress, I don't mean in the sense of spreading throughout the world, because I believe in a policy of non-interference with other people who shouldn't be forced to assimilate into an alien culture. At the moment the one world uniculture is doing this, and it isn't even progress, but hugely damaging in ways that I hardly need list. By limitless progress I was thinking of development of technology that would allow people within that civilisation to go to other planets, to find ways of improving health without using degenerative medecines, to leave behind the primitive mentality that leads to wars based on materialistic greed or other trivialities, and other such futuristic possibilities.
 
I realise Spengler has written about very similar ideas to what I have said above. I picked up the idea of civilisation going through birth, middle age, and then towards death without have read Spengler, so it really just shows how the idea has spread in popularity.

Spengler thought of the beginning of civilisation as being High Culture, which then develops into its full potential in the civilisation stage (the "middle age" as I put it) and then degenerates and dies. This is a cyclical process which has happened several times. According to Spengler's observations about how long the civilisation lasts, our Western civilisation is due to end now. The year for the end of the Western civilisation would have been estimated at the year 2000, but in practice the end may not be rapid (as it was with the Mexican civilisation) but could take a few centuries. Our civilisation is undoubtedly dying now though.

US attempts at world hegemony can be looked at in a new light given this consideration. And it is certainly true that the symptoms of a dying civilisation are there: the proliferation of "subhumans", "fellaheen", or "chandala", and the rule of Money. Also there is the rapid falling off of the rate of scientific innovation.

Spengler says that we can escape from this pessimistic future, but that that the number one imperative is the destruction of Money power and the destruction of democracy. (Essay called "Pessimism ?" 1922). While these two remain nothing will recover.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n2p-2_Stimely.html
 
Norsemaiden said:
What do you think? Is civilisation bad?

Hell no. Civilization pulls us from the harsher realities of nature, and if anything, we should credit Civilization for our freedoms; giving us the ability to overcome obstacles of our human condition.

I see Civilization as a natural, necessary progression in the right direction.

Norsemaiden said:
In short, civilisation is bad because it causes people to become genetically weaker at a rapid rate, losing qualities such as physical and mental health and instinct - and condemning the society to a painful degeneration and death. It is also bad because it has led to the development of unsustainable, ecologically damaging behaviour (pollution, deforestation, etc). And because it draws many people into a dehumanising lifestyle, such as working in the assembly line of a factory for a slave wage. And because civilisations have ended up spreading so far that it would be nearly impossible for any tribe to escape its clutches. (Vaccinating natives, for eg, or plundering their resources). Even the overpopulation of the world is as a result of the excesses of civilisation and civilised values.

I'm trying to be fair here, but you're pointing the finger at Civilization as though it is the initial cause of all evils; blaming the machine without implicating the designer. Thus, I think you couldn't be more wrong especially when you consider the alternative.

Civilization is not the root of evil as I see it, the ignorance of man in his science, and political endeavours, is.
 
If everyone thought good thoughts, and were nice, "perfect" people, then civilisation would work (this gives me deja vu from a debate on Communism) and not damage the earth as much, reduce our genetic strength etc. However, we cannot be expected to reach the ultimate plateau of civilisation straight away. People work in assembly lines to build cars etc, which are all part of civilisation, and these factors all contribute to enhancing civilisation to make it better. Remember, we now have machines to do a lot of things that humans used to have to do.
Before reaching the next step in civilisation, humanity has to go undergo periods of intense work, eg the Industrial Age, to modern times is a huge improvement, but look how many people died of illness in the industrial age.
One day maybe, we will have machines do everything for us, whilst we relax in peace, and ponder the meaning of it all. Maybe :p.
 
Our civilisationis at present following the 1000 year pattern that Spengler (and others since) have observed. Hadesdaman said "if everyone thought good thoughts, and were nice, 'perfect people' then civilisation would work". But the pattern of our civilisation, as with others before it, is that civilisation breeds less intelligent people who are also less inclined to have good thoughts than those from the High Culture who dominated the civilisation at an earlier period. These people can't be made to think "good thoughts" as "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear".

Civilisation is artificial and man made and has always been constructed in a way that was bound to lead to its catastrophic downfall. We can't make this civilisation last or improve. A better civilisation, with the chance of lasting and improving, would have to be built on an entirely different model than any in history. There is a small window of opportunity for western civilisation to be transformed into such a model, unlikely as it is to happen.

Judas 69, you say civilisation is good, but don't you agree that the end is in sight? All the symptoms are there. But then, it always comes as a shock to the people when the civilisation ends - otherwise they wouldn't have let it get in that state in the first place.

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_01/mbutler121001.html
This article, that I just found and well worth a quick look, shows an account of how a 1000 year cycle is coming to an end for our civilisation. The authors think that extreme Islam (ie.Al Qaeda) are the "barbarians at the gate". Other commentators believe that the burgeoning underclass of subhumans within civilisation itself are fulfilling this role. IMO it is the nationalists who come closest and who have the northern spirit (the barbarians/new blood nearly always invades from the north historically). However, these three groups are being suppressed by draconian laws to varying extents.

I've also found out that there are a couple of fairly recent books by Stephen Blaha, an internationally known physicist called "The Life Cycle of Civilizations", and "The Rhythms of History: A Universal theory of Civilizations". He speculates that even extra terrestrial civilisations follow the SAME pattern, of a "rally-rout cycle of three and a half beats".
 
Norsemaiden said:
Judas 69, you say civilisation is good, but don't you agree that the end is in sight? All the symptoms are there. But then, it always comes as a shock to the people when the civilisation ends - otherwise they wouldn't have let it get in that state in the first place.

The end that may or may not be in sight will or will not occur independant of "Civilization" as the concept it is, which I assume is what you're against. Aruging for or against Civilization is like arguing for or against "Society" or "Country". Iintrinsically, these terms are neutral until of course they are put into practice.
 
judas69 said:
The end that may or may not be in sight will or will not occur independant of "Civilization" as the concept it is, which I assume is what you're against. Aruging for or against Civilization is like arguing for or against "Society" or "Country". Iintrinsically, these terms are neutral until of course they are put into practice.

I was saying that the end of civilisation is in sight. I am not sure what you mean if you are saying that the end of civilisation will or will not occur independent of civilisation. "Society" or "country" are distinct from civilisation and existed before civilisation existed. Uncivilised society, when left uninterfered with by medling civilised aid workers, is not subject to the rapid dysgenics of civilisation. Although, without eugenics, genes useful for survival (in a harsher environment) do increase in proportion to the hardships of life. That is why some degeneration has occured to people living in between the iceages and then they are heavily subjected to natural selection again during a subsequent ice age. The reason that invaders have always historically come from the north (with the exception of Muslims) to conquer the south and indeed the original founders of civilisations have been northerners, is because of the hardship of life in the north compared with warmer climates.
 
Norsemaiden said:
I was saying that the end of civilisation is in sight.
I was making the point that civilization is not responsible for our failure, and I wasn't linking "Society" and "Country" to Civilization.
 
How is civilisation not responsible for our failure then? What is responsible, and how could civilisation not inevitably increase the behaviour that causes this failure? Civlisation does things to people, and those things have always been negagtive.

One interesting exception is polygamy. In polygamous societies the intelligence of the population does not dip as it does in monogamous society. This is as an effect of the best men tending to father children to the exclusion of a lot of lower quality men. As a rule in monogamous populations within civilisation, the least intelligent people have considerably more babies than the others.
 
If you're in this thread, required listening is "Civil War" by Guns N' Roses.

Good tune.
 
I'm not so sure how suitable that is, so I will check the lyrics. Probably something like "Blood of the Kings" by Manowar is better, "Brothers, the battle is raging, choose your side!". Not that I advocate war in the usual sense.
 
Having thought more about it, it seems like Spengler must have miscalculated about the the 1000 year length applying to civilisations. The idea of them rising and declining holds true, and the observation that we are witnessing the end of Western civilisation.

The gold-eagle.com account is that our civilisation is at the end of a "bull market cycle", to use economic language, and something callled an "X wave", that lasts for 1000 years - also at the end of a "Grand Super Cycle". They observe that the entire civilisation should be in for a seriously severe period of correction which they predict to last around 100 years.

The Aztec civilisation ended after about 2000 years. They allegedly had a prophesy that at virtually that precise time, Quetzalcoatl, the civilisation's founder, who they thought of as a god, would return. Of course it was in fact the Spaniards, led by Cortez, who came. Quetzalcoatl had been remembered as being a white man with a red beard and Cortez fitted the description. So instead of being attacked, the Spaniards were welcomed. (Remember these Aztecs were in the habit of mass ritual killings plucking the hearts out of living victims. So this welcome was remarkable). They gave the Spaniards loads of jewels and gold. http://www.adventures-inc.com/search.html Anyway, I think the welcoming speech by King Motecuzuma to Cortez is so amazing that I will quote it here.

"For a long time we have known from the writings of our ancestors that neither I [Motecuzoma], nor any of those who dwell in this land, are natives of it, but foreigners who came from a very distant land and likewise we know that a chieftain, of whom they were all vassals, brought our people to this region. And he returned to his native land and after many years came again, by which time all those who had remained were married to native women and had built up the villages and raised children. And when he wished to lead them away again they would not go, nor even admit him as their chief; and so he departed. And we have always held that those who descended from him would come and conquer this land and take us as their vassals. So because of the place from which you claim to come, namely from where the sun rises, and the thing you tell us of the great Lord or king who sent you here, we believe and are certain that his is our natural Lord, especially as you say that he has known of us for some time." (Hernan Cortés, Letters from Mexico, translated by A.R. Pagden, (New York: Grossman Publishers, 1971), 85-60.)
 
Norsemaiden said:
Having thought more about it, it seems like Spengler must have miscalculated about the the 1000 year length applying to civilisations. The idea of them rising and declining holds true, and the observation that we are witnessing the end of Western civilisation.

The gold-eagle.com account is that our civilisation is at the end of a "bull market cycle", to use economic language, and something callled an "X wave", that lasts for 1000 years - also at the end of a "Grand Super Cycle". They observe that the entire civilisation should be in for a seriously severe period of correction which they predict to last around 100 years.

The Aztec civilisation ended after about 2000 years. They allegedly had a prophesy that at virtually that precise time, Quetzalcoatl, the civilisation's founder, who they thought of as a god, would return. Of course it was in fact the Spaniards, led by Cortez, who came. Quetzalcoatl had been remembered as being a white man with a red beard and Cortez fitted the description. So instead of being attacked, the Spaniards were welcomed. (Remember these Aztecs were in the habit of mass ritual killings plucking the hearts out of living victims. So this welcome was remarkable). They gave the Spaniards loads of jewels and gold. http://www.adventures-inc.com/search.html Anyway, I think the welcoming speech by King Motecuzuma to Cortez is so amazing that I will quote it here.

"For a long time we have known from the writings of our ancestors that neither I [Motecuzoma], nor any of those who dwell in this land, are natives of it, but foreigners who came from a very distant land and likewise we know that a chieftain, of whom they were all vassals, brought our people to this region. And he returned to his native land and after many years came again, by which time all those who had remained were married to native women and had built up the villages and raised children. And when he wished to lead them away again they would not go, nor even admit him as their chief; and so he departed. And we have always held that those who descended from him would come and conquer this land and take us as their vassals. So because of the place from which you claim to come, namely from where the sun rises, and the thing you tell us of the great Lord or king who sent you here, we believe and are certain that his is our natural Lord, especially as you say that he has known of us for some time." (Hernan Cortés, Letters from Mexico, translated by A.R. Pagden, (New York: Grossman Publishers, 1971), 85-60.)

I dont know if Spengler had a 1000 year plan. Alot of them(civs)--in his fancy pull out flow-chart of civilizations--may have been around 1,000 years old, but thats irrelevant. Whats important is that all the civilizations went through roughly the same process of rise and fall--albeit with different technology and ideals, but the same process all the same.

I'm still on the fence about civilization. It seems ridiculous to return to the native way of life. Without civilization, we'd be filthy, mangy, vagrants living in tribes or alone, eeking out a pathetic existence from nature. Or perhaps we'd resemble a hunting and gathering society. Yes, we'd have a fair deal of free time and freedom to frolic and impregnate many different women (or have many men if you're a woman); but we'd still be living in mud shacks etc. As terrible as Civilization is, its a damn sight better than no civilization, plus one can always choose to leave civilization if they so choose.
 
I am not sure how possible it is to leave civilisation except perhaps as an individual or family, but then they would have no one except people affected by civilisation to breed with. It would be hard to have a tribe that could live somewhere now without civilisation either breaking it up or many members being seduced by it. Utimately damage done to the environment affects the whole world so that would be inescapable too. The aggressive monoculture is not tolerant of outsiders either. They must all be assimilated.

Civilisation could work in theory, but as I said it would have to be a different model from all preceding civilisations. The pitfalls would have to be avoided. People living through the final brutal death throes of this civilisation would certainly rather have been living in a time in the past as hunter gatherers because looks like it will be a terrrible time. Anyway we would end up in an uncivilised situation when that has happened.

If there are any extra terrestrials who really have the technology to visit other planets, they must have broken free of the process of the decline of civilisation. That is what I would wish for us to do also. This would still be achieved with the spirit of the barbarians. (Like the Klingons in Star Trek!)
 
Assuming civilization has parts like any other machine (those being technological, social, political etc) and steps or states like most other processes, what functional aspect(s) do you attribute to its decline and eventual failure? Surely all aspects of civilization can't be at fault, can they? If so, how?

In the same vein, assuming an inherant flaw in the system, I don't fully understand why you are lumping the whole of Civilization (that which incorporates a multitude of parts) as the sole contributor to its own eventual demise, instead of just targeting those individual components themselves.

Additionally, what is it about the barbarian way of life that superseeds this? Perhaps it's that they don't participate in any real ordered system to fail in the first place? And, does not participating in a system determined to fail mean it offers a better, more suitable way of life? Also, what do you feel is the defining drive for a society to want to become civilized in the first place? In otherwords, do you think you might be overlooking or taking for granted problems civilization might actually help solve, especially since it's always been the direction mankind has headed?

Btw, I like your signature; you have good taste for a barbarian. :err: