Demilich re-release and new material

[Spirit In Black]

That's not progressive. Progressive, by definition, is moving forward and changing. Demilich, strange as their riffs and structure might be, sound precisely the same throughout their albums.

You're right progressive means moving forward and changing.....but that doesn't mean every song or album sounds different. They are proggressive because they do thing no other bands do, and that moves the genre forward....

 

[polarity]

That's not progressive. Progressive, by definition, is moving forward and changing. Demilich, strange as their riffs and structure might be, sound precisely the same throughout their albums.

Demilich only produced one album, so if by "throughout their albums" you were referring to multiple works, rather than through the course of a single work, you evidently don't know what you're talking about.

If you're talking about individual works, then so do Opeth. Although their songs go through many changes towards their resolution (and besides; Demilich's do, too), their albums do each have a definitive "sound."

I'd argue that the term "progressive" refers not to a particular sound/style, but more to a radical innovation within a genre. Hence, "progressive rock," "progressive metal" and "progressive death metal" could mean entirely different things and possess no unifying similarities whatsoever. Demilich's music provided a drastic alteration to the formula of death metal, changing it and moving it forward by usage of the features I noted above. Therefore, they are progressive.

 

[Heliologue]

Demilich only produced one album, so if by "throughout their albums" you were referring to multiple works, rather than through the course of a single work, you evidently don't know what you're talking about.

No, typo. Thanks for correcting me.

I'd argue that the term "progressive" refers not to a particular sound/style, but more to a radical innovation within a genre. Hence, "progressive rock," "progressive metal" and "progressive death metal" could mean entirely different things and possess no unifying similarities whatsoever. Demilich's music provided a drastic alteration to the formula of death metal, changing it and moving it forward by usage of the features I noted above. Therefore, they are progressive.

I disagree. If we look its original musical usage (progressive rock), it, while perhaps innovative initially, is hardly innovating anymore. The majority of modern progressive rocks consists of formulaic, but varied and complex, wankery; yet, it's still labelled "progressive rock." This, I suppose, would define the term "progressive:" it's a stylistic term, not a musicological one. Sure, Demilich revolutionized death metal. Okay, maybe death metal isn't the best term for Opeth (though I could argue it). Fine, whatever you say. But Demilich, revolutionary or not, are still simple death metal. There's nothing "progressive" about their songwriting at all. It has more in common with modern tech-death.

 

[polarity]

I disagree. If we look its original musical usage (progressive rock), it, while perhaps innovative initially, is hardly innovating anymore. The majority of modern progressive rocks consists of formulaic, but varied and complex, wankery; yet, it's still labelled "progressive rock." This, I suppose, would define the term "progressive:" it's a stylistic term, not a musicological one. Sure, Demilich revolutionized death metal. Okay, maybe death metal isn't the best term for Opeth (though I could argue it). Fine, whatever you say. But Demilich, revolutionary or not, are still simple death metal. There's nothing "progressive" about their songwriting at all. It has more in common with modern tech-death.

Interesting points. I'd say that, while 'progressive' is a musicological term, referring to extreme innovation in a genre, 'progressive rock' is a stylistic term, referring to the style of music which resulted from the advent of progressivism in the rock genre. As 'progressive' therefore does not refer to a specific stylistic feature, but extreme innovation using the previous features of a genre as a foundation, bands which are termed 'progressive' in varying genres are not required to possess similar characteristics.

By this definition, presuming Opeth are death metal, they would not be 'progressive death metal,' but 'progressive rock-influenced death metal.'

For that matter, the incorporation of progressive rock into death metal is a pretty damn big innovation, so they WOULD also be 'progressive death metal,' but under this definition of 'progressive,' their being defined as such does not mean that Demilich cannot be.

I hope that was coherent.

 

[Heliologue]

Quite coherent, yes. I understand where you're coming from, but I dislike the dichotomy of definition you propose. I would argue that common usage sits "progressive" as a stylistic term, both for progressive rock and other uses (hence, Opeth's commonly being labelled "progressive"). Introducing it as musicological at one time and stylistic at another would be a messy hashing of genre-building, itself already a mess.

Furthermore, why would we still lend its stylistic use to a genre that long ago ceased being musicologically progressive (perhaps we should call it "Fripp rock"?)? I say, there must be a better categorization for musically iconoclastic bands.

 

[polarity]

I wasn't so much making a proposal as describing my current perception, which I presume is others' also. I do agree though, that a new term is required.

 

[polarity]

The only problem with that term is that it's often (unintentionally) used to mean "novelty masquerading as originality," but I guess that's inevitable with any term used to describe innovation.

 

[Demiurge]

No, typo. Thanks for correcting me.

I disagree. If we look its original musical usage (progressive rock), it, while perhaps innovative initially, is hardly innovating anymore. The majority of modern progressive rocks consists of formulaic, but varied and complex, wankery; yet, it's still labelled "progressive rock." This, I suppose, would define the term "progressive:" it's a stylistic term, not a musicological one. Sure, Demilich revolutionized death metal. Okay, maybe death metal isn't the best term for Opeth (though I could argue it). Fine, whatever you say. But Demilich, revolutionary or not, are still simple death metal. There's nothing "progressive" about their songwriting at all. It has more in common with modern tech-death.

What I disagree with is the idea that advancement somehow requires genre-melding. You're looking at the form and not analyzing any further.

It's like saying Beethoven's 9th symphony wasn't progressive. After all, it's just a symphony. Nothing new about that.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

What's Farmakon like? Hopefully not the same pointless crap as Opeth and Arcturus.

Bad songwriting at times and some kinda goofy vocal parts (for those two bands, respectively)...but pointless? Relisten to your music.

 

[no country for old wainds]

I always thought the point of Arcturus was to be as cheesy as possible.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

polarity brought up a point that I have been deliberating on.

Prog-rock is a style, defined by long songs, wanking, unusual instrumentaton, technicality, and stuff like that.

Progressive music is music that innovates new ideas to progress a particular genre. Bands can be progressive, and have nothing in common musically aside from doing something new. Erik's use of 'avant-garde' could apply here.

By that definition, both Demilich and Opeth are progressive. Demilich in their use of restructurization of riffs, odd keys, and vocals(I assume they were the first to use fucked-up vox like that--correct me if I'm wrong). Opeth through their melding of prog-rock with death metal to create a sound somewhere in between. Either way, it was an innovation on both styles, so Opeth are also progressive. Demilich are not prog-rock. Opeth are. But both are progressive.

I hope THAT was coherent.

 

[Demiurge]

I think polarity was astute in pointing out novelty acts are often mislabeled as progressive.

 

[prozak]

Let me reiterate further, a bit...

"Progressive" is probably a bad term for it, as it implies a Hegelian sense of history... that there is some new, undiscovered terrain for music. In my view, there isn't, but music evolves in cycles toward the same height.

Classical music: narrative structures, layered structures, varied dynamics, ability to abstract "form" and apply it to itself out of certain very set conventions for certain types of compositions, e.g. minuet, etc.

When rock approaches this, it's "progressive." Camel, Yes, King Crimson (first album: 1969 - as "metal" as the Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin releases from the same year).

Metal has grown up with progressive music, but rarely fulfills its nature.

However, some odd stuff is "progressive" by the definition above...

Demilich
Burzum
Incantation - Onward to Golgotha (only)
Emperor
Enslaved
Atrocity
Godflesh - Streetcleaner (only)

Atheist qualifies in many cases, but in others is an example of a metal band adopting a few other forms into something which outright rocks.

polarity, thanks for stating the basic elements of this thread. anonymousnick, thanks for re-stating in a very clear way... however, both of you forgot to bash Opeth. Let me explain.

Opeth, "technically," is probably "progressive" - except that it's an extremely contrived style, at least on their first album. What seems to be narrative is in fact as riff-salady as middle Malevolent Creation. And to be "polite" I add: "Or so it seems to me."

Great thread!

 

[Post_Scriptum]

I knew where I could find you guys!
In the Demilich topic, hehe

 

[Heliologue]

Opeth, "technically," is probably "progressive" - except that it's an extremely contrived style, at least on their first album. What seems to be narrative is in fact as riff-salady as middle Malevolent Creation. And to be "polite" I add: "Or so it seems to me."

True, their first album is rather start and stop. For a more refined sense of narrative structure, Still Life is a wonderful album.

 

[prozak]

...for driving one to suicide?

 

[Heliologue]

Well, the alternative is burning a church or perhaps killing a homosexual.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Awesome thread!

 

[LordFireworm]

Well, the alternative is burning a church or perhaps killing a homosexual.

Or being rude to your parents.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]