Did you watch the Mercenary video?

[chibitotoro]

I'm coming from the same frame of mind as nightwish58 - I absolutely hate cookie monster vocals, or whatever you want to call them. That's the reason why, no matter how much I enjoyed the musical aspect, I couldn't get into Opeth. If there were 2 or more bands at PP 4 that had vocals of this nature, I would not be pleased. But with just one band, who's music is actually pretty good, I'm looking forward to it. It will be a great chance to experience a live performance of a style of music I wouldn't otherwise experience, because I would not go to a concert of just this style. I'll be up towards the front when Mercenary plays, enjoying the opportunity to bang my head to some metal that I would classify as "fuckin' METAL". When they're all done, I'll be staying up front to enjoy the rest of the bands, who play the music that I really came for.

 

[Jim LotFP]

I'm coming from the same frame of mind as nightwish58 - I absolutely hate cookie monster vocals, or whatever you want to call them. That's the reason why, no matter how much I enjoyed the musical aspect, I couldn't get into Opeth. If there were 2 or more bands at PP 4 that had vocals of this nature, I would not be pleased. But with just one band, who's music is actually pretty good, I'm looking forward to it. It will be a great chance to experience a live performance of a style of music I wouldn't otherwise experience, because I would not go to a concert of just this style. I'll be up towards the front when Mercenary plays, enjoying the opportunity to bang my head to some metal that I would classify as "fuckin' METAL". When they're all done, I'll be staying up front to enjoy the rest of the bands, who play the music that I really came for.

I'll be glad to be up front during a band like Mercenary and not have to worry about frickin mosh pits.

 

[ProgMetalFan]

Mercenary is better than Balance of Power.

 

[Geo]

Man, no need to fingerpoint. I like Balance of Power (well, Lance King, anyways), Dream Theater, Helloween, and Devin Townsend.

It's one frickin' slot. Give some credit for those of us who're a bit eclectic. Among my last ten CDs have been The Haunted, Oratory, Finntroll, Strapping Young Lad, and Power of Omens...I'm not into just one kind of music, or even two kinds of music. Mercenary obviously has some crossover influences (they sound a lot like Nevermore, to me), and they're good to go.

Re: Devin Townsend, I didn't care for his set or the live sound that much (his brand of wall of sound tends to be a little overly...well, loud), but I fully understand why he got booked and I was glad he was there. Listen to his studio stuff sometime...he's -not- just another death metal guy by a long shot. He's got more melody in his music than a lot of "melodic" metal bands I know of.

 

[Demonspell]

I agree, to say that death vocals disqualify a band from being progressive is ludicrous, and as long as a band has progressive elements, they should be given equal consideration...

 

[J.]

You mean 'cookie monster'.

Indeed, Jim. Cookie monster, not cookie cutter.

I like cookies.

 

[nightwish58]

Well, conisdering the addition of Mercenary this year (i.e. Death Vox) as well as Devin's appearance last year it would seem the creator and organizer of the festival disagrees with you.....

Yeah and?

 

[nightwish58]

Since when is a band categorized into a certain genre simply based on the vocals they use?

Last time I checked Wolverine used death vocals. I guess they must suck.

I guess Dan Swano's 'Moontower' isn't progressive at all, nor is Sigh's 'Imaginary Sonicscape'. Since the vocals are "cookie cutter", they must be pure death metal.

I actually think Wolverine is great! They don't overuse the Cookie monster vocals and thus I really like them. I can't stand a band that uses death vox predominately. I don't care if they are progressive in their music; the vocals kill it. All I'm saying is that when anyone hears growls and cookie monster vocals, death metal comes to mind. Whenevr anyone hears soaring, clean vocals, power metal comes to mind. I can't comment on Dan Swano or Sigh since I don't listen to them and have never heard them aside from Swano's band Nightingale (I think).

 

[nightwish58]

It's really very simple.

When bands sound like Dream Theater or Helloween, I can hang out in the lobby and rest. I'd actually like to see a ProgPower with neither of these bands' influences there...

When bands don't sound like Helloween and Dream Theater, you can hang out in the lobby and rest. Less crowded vendor tables. Little alcoves to sit down for awhile.

Yeah, that makes alot of sense. You'd like to see a prog power without influences from arguably the best Progressive metal band around (DT), and arguably the best and most influential power metal band (Helloween). Maybe prog power isn't your thing; you might want to reconsider your musical tastes since almost every prog band is influenced in some way by DT, and many power metal bands have been influenced by the great Helloween!

 

[Jim LotFP]

Yeah, that makes alot of sense. You'd like to see a prog power without influences from arguably the best Progressive metal band around (DT), and arguably the best and most influential power metal band (Helloween). Maybe prog power isn't your thing; you might want to reconsider your musical tastes since almost every prog band is influenced in some way by DT, and many power metal bands have been influenced by the great Helloween!

Helloween are/were great... why the idea of recreating a 15 year old album is appealing to this many German, Swedish, and Italian young men is way beyond me.

Dream Theater is on the edge of being either prog OR metal (listening to things like Maudlin of the Well or Sleepytime Gorilla Museum puts the whole 'prog' thing in perspective if we're talking about music pushing the envelope of what music can sound like) and any of their followers may well consider themselves serious musicians to do that style, but I can't respect them as artists for going that route...

Prog and power can very much be my thing as long as it's done with conviction and personal feeling... and I refuse to believe very many people's "personal feeling" sounds close to Dream Theater or Helloween if they weren't actually in there...


The absolute WEAKEST thing any band can do is copy another... and as soon as you can start predicting what a band will sound like just by naming their style, that's when that style dies for me... and if you check up on your metal history, when things become too predictable is when they start dying on a bigger level as well... how many NWOBHM bands lasted? Bay Area thrash bands? Stockholm death metal bands? Floridian death metal bands? Norwegian black metal bands? Gothenburg melodeath bands? OK, how bout the bands that copied any of them?

Any clear cut trend has this bell curve of popularity, and the only way you escape the downslide on the other end is by being one of the first to be popular in that style in the first place, and/or changing to get away from the trend and hope you can retain interest.

Power metal is lasting far longer than most because its backbone isn't a bunch of new bands that all got signed when HammerFall broke... they've got the old German pedigree from the 80s when this was all new that never gave it up... but they suffered through the 90s to reach this point now, but they're the real deal... and how many of these real deals sound like Helloween? Does Rage = Grave Digger = Running Wild = UDO? No...

I want ProgPower to be just pumping and seething with LIFE, to deliver the cutting edge of what Prog and Power is, so when we see the far side of the bell curve here, it can survive because it wasn't just sucking off the trend...

 

[General Zod]

nightwish58,

I think you just need to allow for a little lattitude when it come to ProgPower. I'm guessing Glenn has no desire to limit the line-up to Dream Theater and Helloween clones (two bands that do nothing for me). If Glenn was to set narrow guidelines, as to what should be considered appropriate for this festival, the festival would probably have a very short shelf life. I think you just need to keep in mind that everyone's tastes are different. For instance, if someone asked me to rank the bands in order of who I most want to see, Nightwish would be all the way down in the #9 slot (2nd to last), well behind Mercenary.

GZ

 

[nightwish58]

I understand your points, but to be quite honest, there just aren't too many bands out there that do not draw some type of influence from other bands. And why is that necessarily a bad thing? It is apparent that neither of you would enjoy Stratovarius, but I'm sure Glenn went after them, and I'm sure 90% of the people attending this festival would want to see them. And they are the perfect example of the Helloween clone (double bass pounding, high vocals, great guitar work, etc...) I'm not denying that alot of the shit I listen to is not the most original, but I still enjoy it since I am a fan of progressive, power metal. I love bands like Secret Sphere, Heavenly, Sonata Arctica, etc... Secret Sphere IMO is great; but yet again, are they pushing any boundaries? NO. But is that all this about? I disagree; I think this festival is just as much about bringing this great music to the states, regardless if whether it has been done before by other bands. It isn't often that a band like Pain of Salvation shines through to break the monotony. I mean, you're gonna tell me that it wouldn't be amazing to get Helloween to headline this festival? Forget about whether you like them or not; just based on the fact that they have been around for almost 20 years and have played the states once in the last 10 plus years. On top of that, they are the epitomy of what power, speed metal is all about.
Like I initially said, yeah, I rather not have a band like Mercenary, but if that is all I have to deal with every year in order to see this great festival, it is not such a big deal. I will just hang out with Ken from the Lasers Edge and probably drop another $100 on more repetitive sounding, unoriginal power metal!

 

[Daybreaker]

First Im gonna say that Im glad the people on this forum are capable of having well versed arguments and that this thread hasnt gone into a big "fuck you you suck and your bands suck" type of thing. Anyways heres my two cents on the matter. As a reviewer for a metal webzine, metalreviews.com (wow look at that shameless plug) I listen to alot of metal and to be honest I like alot of it. I would say I like alot of "clone bands" out there but only up to a certain extent. Some bands such as Crystal Eyes and Eternal Flight I could care less about cos theyre just so derivative it boggles my mind. On the other hand I have spent many a day headbanging along to Stormwarrior and Wolf who blatantly wear their influences (Walls of Jericho Helloween and Iron Maiden) on their sleeves and make no apologies for it. Speaking of Helloween isnt it kinda funny how nowadays with the resurgence of Power Metal all these bands sound like Helloween when they themselves dont? I havent heard Rabbit Dont Come Easy yet but really can someone honestly say that albums like Better Than Raw and The Dark Ride sound like say, Hammerfall and Heavenly? It also might be that Im from the US and am not bombarded with 50, 000 bands a day that sound the same. Hell last year Gamma Rays manager was saying he would have bands send him demos and after about a month if within the first 10 sec he heard fast double bass, "happy" guitar melodies and a high singer hed toss it. Oh yea btw, I havent heard Mercenary yet but I intend to before the show.

Ben

 

[Creeps]

Helloween are/were great... why the idea of recreating a 15 year old album is appealing to this many German, Swedish, and Italian young men is way beyond me.

Dream Theater is on the edge of being either prog OR metal (listening to things like Maudlin of the Well or Sleepytime Gorilla Museum puts the whole 'prog' thing in perspective if we're talking about music pushing the envelope of what music can sound like) and any of their followers may well consider themselves serious musicians to do that style, but I can't respect them as artists for going that route...

Prog and power can very much be my thing as long as it's done with conviction and personal feeling... and I refuse to believe very many people's "personal feeling" sounds close to Dream Theater or Helloween if they weren't actually in there...


The absolute WEAKEST thing any band can do is copy another... and as soon as you can start predicting what a band will sound like just by naming their style, that's when that style dies for me... and if you check up on your metal history, when things become too predictable is when they start dying on a bigger level as well... how many NWOBHM bands lasted? Bay Area thrash bands? Stockholm death metal bands? Floridian death metal bands? Norwegian black metal bands? Gothenburg melodeath bands? OK, how bout the bands that copied any of them?

Any clear cut trend has this bell curve of popularity, and the only way you escape the downslide on the other end is by being one of the first to be popular in that style in the first place, and/or changing to get away from the trend and hope you can retain interest.

Power metal is lasting far longer than most because its backbone isn't a bunch of new bands that all got signed when HammerFall broke... they've got the old German pedigree from the 80s when this was all new that never gave it up... but they suffered through the 90s to reach this point now, but they're the real deal... and how many of these real deals sound like Helloween? Does Rage = Grave Digger = Running Wild = UDO? No...

I want ProgPower to be just pumping and seething with LIFE, to deliver the cutting edge of what Prog and Power is, so when we see the far side of the bell curve here, it can survive because it wasn't just sucking off the trend...

Well, I'll have to throw something in the mix here...

There's only so many chords on a guitar.
There's only so many notes.

ALL bands (rock/metal/industrial/death/power/prog, etc..) draw influences from someplace.

There are certain bands that majorly influence certain genres and some bands that will influence all. Let's take in consideration... Led Zeppelin, Ac/Dc, Kiss, Alice Cooper, Dream Theatre, Helloween, Iron Maiden, Motorhead, Rush, Nine Inch Nails, Nirvana, Aerosmith, Pearl Jam, Napalm Death, Death, Slayer... just to name a few. All of these bands (regardless if you like them or not) have been a MAJOR influence on bands that are releasing material these days. I mentioned these bands more than others because I listen to a LOT of different styles of metal and I hear these influences pour out of my speakers. Granted, I don't like Nirvana, Pearl Jam but when the wife wants me to pick up the new 'Creed' CD for her.. I'll eventually hear it

Without AC/DC there would not have been a Rhino Bucket, Dirty Looks or Buckcherry.. I like those bands, and am glad that they play what THEY WANT to play to put out records I enjoy. Just because a band sounds like 'Helloween' doesn't mean they're not playing from the heart.

And.. for the record, there's a lot of bay area thrash bands still releasing incredible albums these days... Testament anyone? Call them nostalgic if you will, but when a band like Testament, Anthrax, Overkill, Slayer or Metal Church release something, you can count on me buying it.

And me living in Florida will say you obviously are missing something by stating the FLA death scene is dead... 6 Feet Under? Cannibal Corpse? Deicide? Morbid Angel? Please, stop me when I name a band that HASN'T released an album in the last year or so.

Now, before you start loading your gun and aiming at my snaggletoothed icon over there, I DO understand what you are trying to share your opinion on dis-liking copycat bands (at least that's what I now gather by reading your post a few times).. So PLEASE, before you spout off your "facts" make sure you have them in order.

///edited for 2 spelling errors///

 

[Jim LotFP]

So PLEASE, before you spout off your "facts" make sure you have them in order.

My facts are fine, you're just ignoring a key point of what I said.

the only way you escape the downslide on the other end is by being one of the first to be popular in that style in the first place...

There's only so many chords on a guitar.
There's only so many notes.
ALL bands (rock/metal/industrial/death/power/prog, etc..) draw influences from someplace.

True, but isn't it amazing how every year there are still wildly imaginative and unique albums coming out?

And me living in Florida will say you obviously are missing something by stating the FLA death scene is dead... 6 Feet Under? Cannibal Corpse? Deicide? Morbid Angel? Please, stop me when I name a band that HASN'T released an album in the last year or so. .

All of those are either forerunners in the scene that started in the 80s (or in the case of Six Feet Under, has an important figure from that time) and whose first albums CAUSED that style to get popular. I'm sure you can think of many, many bands that followed them to cause the glut of the style.

And.. for the record, there's a lot of bay area thrash bands still releasing incredible albums these days... Testament anyone? Call them nostalgiv if you will, but when a band like Testament, Anthrax, Overkill, Slayer or Metal Church release something, you can't count on me buying it.

Once again, these are 'early adoptors' although you're really stretching to say Metal Church should be in this grouping.

 

[Creeps]

actually what you stated in your post was "how many bands (insert style here) have lasted?"

You did not specify bands, but made a broad generalization of all those styles and made it sound like they were now extinct. Or at least extinct for you, in which case that's your decision and there's nothing wrong with that. But that's how your message read.

As for Metal Church, I'm not sure I agree with you on that one. their 1st studio release came out in 1985. That's not saying their pioneers, but they were well ahead of a lot of other bands that came after the big-4 (Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Anthrax).

that being said.. (and I'm not kidding here) please post a list of these ///quote/// wildly imaginative and unique albums coming out ///end quote///

I'm serious, I'd like to see what you've picked up to see if I have or have heard any of them.

 

[Jim LotFP]

actually what you stated in your post was "how many bands (insert style here) have lasted?"

You did not specify bands, but made a broad generalization of all those styles and made it sound like they were now extinct. Or at least extinct for you, in which case that's your decision and there's nothing wrong with that. But that's how your message read.

If we compare the number of bands around now as compared to the number of bands around at the height of the style... there are very few left in comparison. Not none, just few.

As far as my list of bands, I'm at work right now making responses between attempting to be productive. When I get home tonight I definitely will give what I consider a fairly comprehensive list so I'm not going through actual lists off the top of my head when I'm mostly thinking about other things.

 

[General Zod]

Glenn did go after Stratovarius, as I understand it. However, I would say that your assumption that 90% of those attending this festival would like to see them is a bit high. I would say the number is probably closer to 60%, as they seem to be one of those bands that people either love or hate.

You are correct, everyone does draw influence from somewhere. However, I think the bands in the Power Metal genre, in particular, often draw too heavily from their predecessors. I think bands like Mercenary, although not incredibly original themselves, are exapnding those boundaries, at least a little.

I hope that you will at least give them a chance to win you over with their live show, before giving Ken your paycheck.

GZ

 

[nightwish58]

Glenn did go after Stratovarius, as I understand it. However, I would say that your assumption that 90% of those attending this festival would like to see them is a bit high. I would say the number is probably closer to 60%, as they seem to be one of those bands that people either love or hate.

You are correct, everyone does draw influence from somewhere. However, I think the bands in the Power Metal genre, in particular, often draw too heavily from their predecessors. I think bands like Mercenary, although not incredibly original themselves, are exapnding those boundaries, at least a little.

I hope that you will at least give them a chance to win you over with their live show, before giving Ken your paycheck.

GZ

Hey, I have no problem giving them a shot at PP. Who knows what will happen, but I already start off on a negative vibe due to the death metal vocals. However, I felt the same way with Wolverine, and honestly, I love them now. We'll see!

 

[Charlie E.]

Hey, I have no problem giving them a shot at PP. Who knows what will happen, but I already start off on a negative vibe due to the death metal vocals. However, I felt the same way with Wolverine, and honestly, I love them now. We'll see!

Well I'm glad you'll give them a chance. It's funny how the only band you seem to have a problem with is the only band I'd be attending for
Did you check out their other songs at mp3.com?
It's also quite funny just how different everyone definition of progressive is.