Difficult client...ask engineers/producers they worked with in the past?

[Jordon]

So I recently started production on a new record, and things are sounding great. the pre-pro tracks are awesome, started tracking drums and guitar and I think it's some of my best engineering work. The client is really excited during the tracking process, but after a day or two, will come back in and use phrases like "I hate ___, it just sounds bad," or "That's totally not what I had in my brain. My brain hates it." Basically zero constructive comments/criticism.

Meanwhile, the tracks do honestly sound fantastic. The drums, for example, are awesome. The drummer who played on them played the parts exactly how the client and I wrote them. The tones fit the project and each song, and so forth. The client (it's a solo EP) and I sat down and went through each track and put together a comp sheet for the drums, so that when I went to edit, I knew that these were the takes/parts he wanted. I sat down and started editing, and when he heard the finished, rough-mixed drums, I got a reaction like the examples above...for nearly every track.

He can't seem to commit, and won't really listen to my input as the producer (something he specifically hired me for). So when do I put my foot down? It's strange, I don't usually have any problem being assertive when in this role, and I always do it in a diplomatic way so that the client thinks it was their idea all along...but with this one, it seems impossible. I'm rebuked left and right, even on things that he had signed off on the day before.

I know a couple people who have worked with him in the past, and I'd like to ask them about their experience with him, but I'm hesitant. Do any of you think this would be poor form?

All in all, it's not a bad situation, by any stretch, but I'm starting to see signs that this project could be one of those that just drags on due to a lack of being able to commit on his end.

 

[Mago]

Having to work with someone who doesn't know what he wants can be pretty difficult.

If you were hired as the producer, then I'd say you make the calls on commiting, ain't it?

 

[Jordon]

Having to work with someone who doesn't know what he wants can be pretty difficult.

If you were hired as the producer, then I'd say you make the calls on commiting, ain't it?

You'd think that, right?

I mean, I've dealt with asshole and deadbeat and unreliable clients in the past, but this dude isn't that. He's a really nice guy, and a hell of a musician. He's just really fickle, flip-flopping on decisions constantly, and his communication skills aren't the best.

 

[JeffTD]

I don't think it would be incredibly poor form to reach out to past engineers and say "Hey, I'm working with this guy and I'm noticing some quirks - anything you found to help get inside his headspace and figure out what he's trying to communicate?"

Otherwise, I'd have to sit down with the guy and explain to him that he needs to be able to communicate his ideas as more than just blanket statements of negativity. If he can't tell you what he wants and he isn't paying you enough to read his mind (which literally nobody can do), then he can't expect a product he'll be happy with in the end, and he needs to understand that. Your job is to take his ideas and bring them to life in the form of recorded audio; his job as an artist is to communicate those ideas effectively enough that a good engineer can work with them, and it sounds like he's not at all doing that. It sounds like he's lost sight of his own role in the production and is blaming you for it.

 

[Grå Värld]

Get him to bring you examples of stuff that he does like so you can decipher what the fuck he means

 

[colonel kurtz]

just tell him that with as long as it took to release chinese democracy, all his fans are gonna be dead if he keeps pussyfooting around with this one

 

[blue_fAng]

Organize a meeting and talk about the things he doesn't like and how you can change them. Ask him how would he like it to sound like what snare sound he likes in x album and search it on youtube for reference. Communication is key.

 

[Notuern]

My first thought after reading this.. he wasnt reacting to the fact that you edited the drums? Try playing back the original takes and see what he thinks?
Because from what you said i essentially get that he was happy with everything and once you had edited the takes that you both agreed on he didn't like it anymore.

 

[Wishx]

Get him drunk and then ask him, what he wants

 

[if6was9]

Yeah you need to talk to him and get him to express what it is he doesn't like and how he thinks it could be brought more around to his liking.

I've had clients in the past be fickle. They like something one day and love/hate it the next. The key is to keep them involved and to constantly be talking to them so if something starts going wrong in their eyes you don't go too far before you have to undo it. I find people like this can often shut down and bring things grinding to a halt so keep them positive and keep them talking. Ask him " What do YOU think of this take" or "Do you prefer this or, this" ask him questions that require full sentences instead of yes and no answers and you'll soon get how he thinks and what way he is listening to things.

I see someone's job as producer to get the most out of the client, push them in the right way to keep things productive and positive. It's as much a people thing as a technical thing.

 

[if6was9]

i see no problem with talking to people they've worked with previously if they are people who you know too. I've talked to fellow engineers about musicians I've worked with that they have or will also work with loads of times.

 

[heshian46]

I feel your pain man.

I think this could be a good learning opportunity for him. It seems like he doesn't really know how to function in a studio setting, its a wonder how he even finished writing his own songs. You could really help him see how it needs to be, polish him up a bit. Tell him how it is, and that he needs to commit.

 

[Jordon]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I've sent out a few emails to see what back story I can get on him.

My first thought after reading this.. he wasnt reacting to the fact that you edited the drums? Try playing back the original takes and see what he thinks?
Because from what you said i essentially get that he was happy with everything and once you had edited the takes that you both agreed on he didn't like it anymore.

Not really, it basically went like this:

-He wrote the drum parts, with my input during prepro here and there.
-His friend played those EXACT parts, expounding on fills here and there.
-Him and I comped the takes together, I specifically asked him about each take/part during comping to make sure it was what he wanted and had in mind.
-Now he's complaining about the parts picked. Not the ending, but the actual comp.

 

[Line666]

Tell him extra work costs extra money. If he wants to go back on his own decision then that is something that requires reimbursement for time wasted because you're not a charity.

 

[smy1]

The problem is a normal one for musicians and it stems from insecurity. He's either insecure about:

a) the specific ideas
b) the general direction
c) what his friends will think
d) if his girlfriend will like it (or if he doesn't have a gf: if chicks will like it and think he's a cool guy)
e) if he'll be "famous" and "make it" (in whatever scene/niche/category he's in)

or

f) all of the above at the same time.

It took me many years and 10-12 releases to be comfortable with what I'm doing and not hate it. On the 2nd Faderhead record I had the track order changed 1 day before pressing because a "famous friend" of mine suggested it. Not that it really made a difference at all, but I was being paranoid and didn't have a clear vision for the project.

It's like Timbaland said: "For the first 10 years you are not a producer, you are just throwing shit together without a clue!".

Your client's problem is less about the actual sound or playing but 99% about his psyche.

 

[Sloan]

"Hey man, finished all this this week, here it is. Nice working with you."