do lyrics often detract from the richness of musical experience?

[Cythraul]

Hello everybody. I was just thinking of something a while ago which I think is of some interest. Anyway, here it is. Most of my favorite music falls under the category of either metal, dark ambient, or classical. I have quite a few friends who listen to what you might call conventional music. I guess what I mean by 'conventional music' is music that is mainstream and easily digestible/understandable. Much, if not most of this conventional music has sung lyrics that are audible and easy to understand. This kind of music has always bored the crap out of me, and I've been trying to understand why it does. Another thing that occurred to me as I was wondering about this is that I've always regarded melody (and also "melody") as the primary vehicle for expression in music, in most cases. I will usually find music to be the most interesting at the conceptual level whenever the themes/melodies in a piece of music are developing in some interesting way (I am oversimplifying a bit here though). So then my thoughts drifted back to the question of why I find this conventional music so uninteresting and a couple things occurred to me. Most of the music I like has either no lyrics at all, lyrics that are indecipherable to the ear, or lyrics that are ambiguous or open to some interpretation. This allows for me, in my experience of said music and in my reflection on it, to explore a number of avenues in interpreting it at a conceptual level. Another thought also occurred to me. This conventional music with its presence of audible and easy-to-understand lyrics seems to close off the conceptual space in which one can play around in when experiencing and reflecting on this music. It's as if these lyrics are doing something like telling you "This is what this song is about", and your options for interpretation are closed off because words seem to be so much more precise than musical sounds in what they signify. And I think that detracts from the richness of musical experience. It's like the whole experience is just handed to you and you don't have to exert any effort. There's no adventure in listening to this stuff.

But sometimes lyrics can make a musical experience a whole lot more interesting, but not if they're too obvious, e.g. "My girlfriend left me" or "Jump da fuck up!" So I am wondering what any of you guys think of all this. Am I correct that lyrics can detract from musical experience in the way I described or do lyrics more often enhance musical experience? What sort of roles can lyrics play in musical expression? Do they serve to clarify what's being expressed or something of that nature? If so then do you think that would make the music a bit boring for the reasons I presented earlier or for some other reasons?

 

[Seditious]

maybe. I know I hate cheesy shit (and love foreign stuff, cos it really can't contribute as anything more than as an instrument to me)

vocals though, add to it IMO.

 

[speed]

Im the same way Cythrual. I dont usually care about the lyrics, and always select my music based on the music itself. I know many who do the opposite however. But, I think Lyrics can add to the richness of the musical experience. Why, look at opera (some may disagree).

 

[Ecaobia]

Hmmmmm... I would have to say that lyrics are a big part of music for me. They realy give the vocalist a way to showcase their voice instead of the old, Gregorian Chant way. Plus, having lyrics are a way in which the music can be programatic. The song no longer is just portraying a picture that is interpretted solely by the listener. With lyrics, instead, the listener can formulate their own ideas from the instrumentals, as well as recieve a message from the lyrics.

 

[Tabubua]

I think vocals matter to me, but only in their usage as another instrument, rather than for the lyrical content (which is probably a good thing, as I often find i can't make out a single word being screeched down my headphones and into my ear).

I think music *should* be able to convey what ever the musician wishes to convey with out words. It's what i look for when I'm exploring new bands and new sounds. It's how great music throughout the aeons has been produced.

If music can't convey emotions and thoughts with out a running commentry describing whats going on, it is really music? Or just a collection of pleasant (you would hope) sounding noises.

I'm not saying that all lyrics are bad, or even that a decent song couldn't be built around a set lyrics, but many of the commercial, radio/ idiot-friendly music Cythraul describes in his original post often use boring and unimaginative lyrics to embellish a weak plastic-pop piece of music, which is basically a few simple catchy phrases repeated over and over so (if you're an idiot) they'll stick in your brain, drive you crazy and force you to buy what ever crappy album it's off

 

[1TON]

i usually find myself listening more to the tonality, timbre and insturmentation of the voice and not the words.

i personally dont care to hear (for the millionth time ) song lyrics about how crappy your life is or why your girlfriend dumped you , why your parents dont understand, whining , bitchin ,complaining or anything else.
and that goes for "rims" ,whips', gats, grillz..ect. ect.

i hate when singers use the word "sometimes" .

i prefer vocalists who use there voice as a insturment.as well as having some intelligent or interesting lyrics.

 

[MURAI]

Hello everybody. I was just thinking of something a while ago which I think is of some interest. Anyway, here it is. Most of my favorite music falls under the category of either metal, dark ambient, or classical. I have quite a few friends who listen to what you might call conventional music. I guess what I mean by 'conventional music' is music that is mainstream and easily digestible/understandable. Much, if not most of this conventional music has sung lyrics that are audible and easy to understand. This kind of music has always bored the crap out of me, and I've been trying to understand why it does. Another thing that occurred to me as I was wondering about this is that I've always regarded melody (and also "melody") as the primary vehicle for expression in music, in most cases. I will usually find music to be the most interesting at the conceptual level whenever the themes/melodies in a piece of music are developing in some interesting way (I am oversimplifying a bit here though). So then my thoughts drifted back to the question of why I find this conventional music so uninteresting and a couple things occurred to me. Most of the music I like has either no lyrics at all, lyrics that are indecipherable to the ear, or lyrics that are ambiguous or open to some interpretation. This allows for me, in my experience of said music and in my reflection on it, to explore a number of avenues in interpreting it at a conceptual level. Another thought also occurred to me. This conventional music with its presence of audible and easy-to-understand lyrics seems to close off the conceptual space in which one can play around in when experiencing and reflecting on this music. It's as if these lyrics are doing something like telling you "This is what this song is about", and your options for interpretation are closed off because words seem to be so much more precise than musical sounds in what they signify. And I think that detracts from the richness of musical experience. It's like the whole experience is just handed to you and you don't have to exert any effort. There's no adventure in listening to this stuff.

But sometimes lyrics can make a musical experience a whole lot more interesting, but not if they're too obvious, e.g. "My girlfriend left me" or "Jump da fuck up!" So I am wondering what any of you guys think of all this. Am I correct that lyrics can detract from musical experience in the way I described or do lyrics more often enhance musical experience? What sort of roles can lyrics play in musical expression? Do they serve to clarify what's being expressed or something of that nature? If so then do you think that would make the music a bit boring for the reasons I presented earlier or for some other reasons?

No, lyrics are important. And is it not fun to read the lyrics first, then listening to the actual song later to see how the band executed everything?

I find some major metal bands started being more descriptive and literal when it comes to purveying ideas later in their career. I will bring up Slayer and Morbid Angel as examples and I take songs which questions Christian values:

Slayer - Jesus Saves ('89)

You go to the church, you kiss the cross
You will be saved at any cost
You have your own reality
Christianity
You spend your life just kissing ass
A trait that's grown as time has passed
You think the world will end today
You praise the Lord, it's all you say

Jesus saves, listen to you pray
You think you'll see the pearly gates
When death takes you away

For all respect you cannot lust
In an invisible man you place your trust
Indirect dependency
Eternal attempt at amnesty
He will decide who lives and dies
Depopulate Satanas rise
You will be an accessory
Irreverence and blasphemy

[LEAD: KING]

Jesus saves, no need to pray
The gates of pearl have turned to gold
It seems you've lost your way

[LEAD: HANNEMAN]

Jesus saves, no words of praise
No promised land to take you to
There is no other way

[LEAD: KING]

Slayer - Circle of Beliefs ('94)

Can't explain the other side
Answers lost before their eyes
Violence surges from inside
A state of mind that never dies
Born into a chosen way
Life that doesn't fit today
To die a painful death it seems
Is better than your misery
Contemplating rearranging
Changing all your ways of tinking

Everyday you life seems like
It's pushed into a hole
Acting out another's needs
To rule a soul eternally
Adjusting to another set
Of values takes it's toll
Growing in a lunacy
That plays on your stupidity

Circle of beliefs
Secrets never keep
Living in a lie
Right before your eyes
Born without a brain
Helpless is your name
All you do is pray
Living is your pain

Mentally so small you can't
Accept another side
Your point of view a memory
Because it doesn't mean a thing
The resurrection's waiting for
A world without sin
The temples will crumble
While awaiting for it to begin

Circle of beliefs
Secrets never keep
Living in a lie
Right before your eyes
Losing is your way
Mental disarray
I can see your strain
You don't want to be saved

[lead: King]

Can't you see no validity
Must control silencing of souls
Slow decay spreading through your brain
Devistate the deviant will dominate

Can't you see there's no validity
Your way is not the only way
Slow decay spreading through your brain
Don't you see the power of the enemy
Tyrrany total supremacy
Control the silencing of souls
Slavery within the entity
Devistate, dominate

Can't explain the reason why
Someone would rather live than die
If dying is the only way
To end a life of mental stains
All your life he's been the cause
A man impaled upon a cross
Pure religious holocaust
If religion dies it's not my loss

[lead: Hannemann]
Percertion always biased Feeding off a fallacy
Your systematic way of life
Decided for you every night
Intentional conflicting words
Avoid solidity
Blinded by the holy light
That constantly consumes your mind

Circle of beliefs
Secrets never keep
Living in a lie
Right before your eyes
Burning in my wake
Souls are free to take
You're following a fake
Everyone awake!!!

Morbid Angel - Blasphemy ('89)

[Music & Lyrics : Azagthoth]

I am the god of gods
Master of the art
I desecrate the chaste
Writhe in the flesh

Blasphemy

Chant the blasphemy
Mockery of the messiah
We curse the holy ghost
Enslaver of the weak
God of lies and greed
God of hypocrisy
We laugh at your bastard child
No god shall come before me

[Chorus:]
Blaspheme the ghost [X3]
Blasphemy of the holy ghost

[Solo: Brunelle]

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law
Rebel against the church
Drink from the chalice of blasphemy
Rise up against the enslaver

(Blasphemy)

[Repeat 2nd verse and chorus]

[Solo: Azagthoth]

[Repeat 2nd chorus]

(Blasphemy)

Morbid Angel - Secured Limitation (2000)

[Lyrics - Azagthoth, Music - Azagthoth]

Secured limitations
you created this thing you call sin

A guide for the undisciplined sheep
through the pain and denial the pleasure reaped
a freedom contained within a shell
and all that's without you call hell

You scorn our existence
Unclean despising our ways
Shall the unclean come and infect you

For our ways, disheveling your hold
and the random perplexing the fled
Behind the walls of concrete, they hide
Secured limitations
From uncertainties the god-mind knows
and from the nothingness, all the wines flow
The affluence, the-mother's gift
but you can't, through the concrete

You scorn our existence
Unclean despising our ways
Shall the unclean come and inflect you

For the heathens have chosen a different light
and the vision of the all through the inner sight
For the freedoms and prisons are in the mind
Secured limitations
From the uncertainties the god-mind knows
and from the nothingness all the wines flow
The affluence, the god-mother's gift
but you can't see, through the concrete

 

[Clay.]

personally, i do not really pay attention to the lyrics. i consider them as a seperate instrument that moves the song forward. for certain bands like cradle of filth, dimmu borgir and others, i dnt really like the vocals, but the music...oh my, the music i have to say is amazing!
the way the singer dani filth (of COF) sings is kinda weird to be honest (but i am amazed at how he actualy sings like that, i mean, DAMN! singing like that is really hard!) but the music by the guitarists, drummer & keyboardist makes it all come together.

 

[rrjii2000]

Hello everybody. I was just thinking of something a while ago which I think is of some interest. Anyway, here it is. Most of my favorite music falls under the category of either metal, dark ambient, or classical. I have quite a few friends who listen to what you might call conventional music. I guess what I mean by 'conventional music' is music that is mainstream and easily digestible/understandable. Much, if not most of this conventional music has sung lyrics that are audible and easy to understand. This kind of music has always bored the crap out of me, and I've been trying to understand why it does. Another thing that occurred to me as I was wondering about this is that I've always regarded melody (and also "melody") as the primary vehicle for expression in music, in most cases. I will usually find music to be the most interesting at the conceptual level whenever the themes/melodies in a piece of music are developing in some interesting way (I am oversimplifying a bit here though). So then my thoughts drifted back to the question of why I find this conventional music so uninteresting and a couple things occurred to me. Most of the music I like has either no lyrics at all, lyrics that are indecipherable to the ear, or lyrics that are ambiguous or open to some interpretation. This allows for me, in my experience of said music and in my reflection on it, to explore a number of avenues in interpreting it at a conceptual level. Another thought also occurred to me. This conventional music with its presence of audible and easy-to-understand lyrics seems to close off the conceptual space in which one can play around in when experiencing and reflecting on this music. It's as if these lyrics are doing something like telling you "This is what this song is about", and your options for interpretation are closed off because words seem to be so much more precise than musical sounds in what they signify. And I think that detracts from the richness of musical experience. It's like the whole experience is just handed to you and you don't have to exert any effort. There's no adventure in listening to this stuff.

But sometimes lyrics can make a musical experience a whole lot more interesting, but not if they're too obvious, e.g. "My girlfriend left me" or "Jump da fuck up!" So I am wondering what any of you guys think of all this. Am I correct that lyrics can detract from musical experience in the way I described or do lyrics more often enhance musical experience? What sort of roles can lyrics play in musical expression? Do they serve to clarify what's being expressed or something of that nature? If so then do you think that would make the music a bit boring for the reasons I presented earlier or for some other reasons?

Yes, most definately. If a songs lyrics, are poorly written or too fucked up. I can't enjoy the song. It could be the greatest arrangemant ever, but bad lyrics will ruin it ever time.


Rob

 

[Matt Wartooth]

I prefer songs that have lyrics, instead of instrumentals, however the lyrics themselves dont really matter as i usually cant make out what the singer is saying when they scream. Even with singers who sing properly i dont really care what the lyrics are, i like power metal, even though the lyrics are often incredibly cheesy, and i like megadeth, even though Dave Mustaine writes some of the worst lyrics ever, eg. any lyrics from 'Psychotron'.For me the voice is just another instrument, and its more about the sound of the voice than the actual lyrical content.

 

[Clay.]

Exactly!

 

[Burnett]

Hello everybody. I was just thinking of something a while ago which I think is of some interest. Anyway, here it is. Most of my favorite music falls under the category of either metal, dark ambient, or classical. I have quite a few friends who listen to what you might call conventional music. I guess what I mean by 'conventional music' is music that is mainstream and easily digestible/understandable. Much, if not most of this conventional music has sung lyrics that are audible and easy to understand. This kind of music has always bored the crap out of me, and I've been trying to understand why it does. Another thing that occurred to me as I was wondering about this is that I've always regarded melody (and also "melody") as the primary vehicle for expression in music, in most cases. I will usually find music to be the most interesting at the conceptual level whenever the themes/melodies in a piece of music are developing in some interesting way (I am oversimplifying a bit here though). So then my thoughts drifted back to the question of why I find this conventional music so uninteresting and a couple things occurred to me. Most of the music I like has either no lyrics at all, lyrics that are indecipherable to the ear, or lyrics that are ambiguous or open to some interpretation. This allows for me, in my experience of said music and in my reflection on it, to explore a number of avenues in interpreting it at a conceptual level. Another thought also occurred to me. This conventional music with its presence of audible and easy-to-understand lyrics seems to close off the conceptual space in which one can play around in when experiencing and reflecting on this music. It's as if these lyrics are doing something like telling you "This is what this song is about", and your options for interpretation are closed off because words seem to be so much more precise than musical sounds in what they signify. And I think that detracts from the richness of musical experience. It's like the whole experience is just handed to you and you don't have to exert any effort. There's no adventure in listening to this stuff.

But sometimes lyrics can make a musical experience a whole lot more interesting, but not if they're too obvious, e.g. "My girlfriend left me" or "Jump da fuck up!" So I am wondering what any of you guys think of all this. Am I correct that lyrics can detract from musical experience in the way I described or do lyrics more often enhance musical experience? What sort of roles can lyrics play in musical expression? Do they serve to clarify what's being expressed or something of that nature? If so then do you think that would make the music a bit boring for the reasons I presented earlier or for some other reasons?

I've got to say, I find that lyrics are almost as important for me as the music, songs are often ruined by shoddy lyrics. Rob Halford is one of the worst lyricists in metal... he seems blind to some of the absolute bugger he puts out.

I love it when bands incorporate storylines and the like into their work, and it does improve the experience no end to me. Like Iced Earth It can depend on the situation, though - if Manowar started writing thought-provoking lyrics about life and death, or something - it'd SUCK. Some bands need to have pish, cheesy lyrics.

 

[Wolves83]

Honestly, Who really cares about what the lyrics say? seriously. Regardless of any lyrics' content, its really about "for show" and entertainment, nothing to be taken seriously which I find anyways. I listen for the music and the great guitar riffs or awesome drum lines, take your pick.

 

[EyeballKid]

I come in strongly on the side of lyrics, without a doubt. Now, the argument against common "pop" lyrics is completely valid, because most uber-mainstream artists don't know anything beyond a standard A-B rhyme scheme and consistently recycle the same emotion throughout an entire album.

In my opinion, the mark of a great lyricist is someone who is able to take something that has been said before and say it in a different way, and in a way that can be interpreted based on personal experiences. However, the idea that all lyrics should be completely up to interpretation makes the role of the songwriter/lyricist obsolete. Lyrics can be equally about the artist's personal emotions AND the audience's various understanding. The drive of being a lyricist is being able to express the way you feel creatively, so to say that all easily-coherent lyrics are un-artistic is a crock, IMO.

On the flip side, the ability to express one's feelings without lyrics is a gift and always the mark of true creativity. Take someone like Joe Satriani, who takes a mood or theme and than writes a piece of instrumental music based around that mood (to bring it to life). Here is someone who needs no lyrics to be absolutely engaging and easy to relate to.

If people can relate to a feeling, that's what will draw them in. If people can relate to a lyric, that's what will draw them in. Music is about finding an audible version of an emotion that you have felt. Without relation, no one would listen to music. And without words, it is often impossible for many people to relate.

So, in closing: lyrics should always enhance a mood that is already present in the instrumentation. The fact is, not everyone is talented enough to constantly make those two things merge flawlessly.

I would like to see what my answer would be to this question, however, if I was not a musician and lyricist (like I assume many of the people on these forums are).

For an audio example of my argument, please listen to Tom Waits. As I shall now do.

 

[death metal black metal]

I edited your post to be readable:

Most of my favorite music falls under the category of either metal, dark ambient, or classical. I have quite a few friends who listen to what you might call conventional music. I guess what I mean by 'conventional music' is music that is mainstream and easily digestible/understandable. Much, if not most of this conventional music has sung lyrics that are audible and easy to understand. This kind of music has always bored the crap out of me, and I've been trying to understand why it does.

I've always regarded melody (and also "melody") as the primary vehicle for expression in music, in most cases. I will usually find music to be the most interesting at the conceptual level whenever the themes/melodies in a piece of music are developing in some interesting way (I am oversimplifying a bit here though). So then my thoughts drifted back to the question of why I find this conventional music so uninteresting and a couple things occurred to me.

Most of the music I like has either no lyrics at all, lyrics that are indecipherable to the ear, or lyrics that are ambiguous or open to some interpretation. This allows for me, in my experience of said music and in my reflection on it, to explore a number of avenues in interpreting it at a conceptual level.

This conventional music with its presence of audible and easy-to-understand lyrics seems to close off the conceptual space in which one can play around in when experiencing and reflecting on this music. It's as if these lyrics are doing something like telling you "This is what this song is about", and your options for interpretation are closed off because words seem to be so much more precise than musical sounds in what they signify.

That detracts from the richness of musical experience. It's like the whole experience is just handed to you and you don't have to exert any effort. There's no adventure in listening to this stuff.

But sometimes lyrics can make a musical experience a whole lot more interesting, but not if they're too obvious, e.g. "My girlfriend left me" or "Jump da fuck up!" Am I correct that lyrics can detract from musical experience in the way I described or do lyrics more often enhance musical experience? What sort of roles can lyrics play in musical expression? Do they serve to clarify what's being expressed or something of that nature?

Interesting part:

I've always regarded melody (and also "melody") as the primary vehicle for expression in music, in most cases. I will usually find music to be the most interesting at the conceptual level whenever the themes/melodies in a piece of music are developing in some interesting way (I am oversimplifying a bit here though).

Most of the music I like has either no lyrics at all, lyrics that are indecipherable to the ear, or lyrics that are ambiguous or open to some interpretation.

Me too. Rhyming couplets do not express as much as pure sound, so I like lyrics that wallpaper the room a good song provides. If the music is quality, someone chanting about death and sodomy and the inevitability of Christian holocaust does just fine.

 

[llamaking]

If I'm listening to death/black metal, I usually could care less about the lyric. On the other hand if the music I'm listening to has lyrics I can understand then yes I want to bands to put some effort into them and make them good.

 

[kingcarcas]

Yes if they're racist.

 

[waif]

i like megadeth, even though Dave Mustaine writes some of the worst lyrics ever, eg. any lyrics from 'Psychotron'.For me the voice is just another instrument, and its more about the sound of the voice than the actual lyrical content.

Umm...Dave Mustaine is actually a great lyricist, if you ever bothered to listen to Sweating Bullets, Peace Sells, Architecture of Aggression, etc, as well as having a great sense of humor; Chosen Ones, Hanger 18, and of course, Psychotron.
So...shut up.

Frankly, lyrics are important. Without meaning, music is just noise. I do like ambiguous lyrics that you have to interpret, but also lyrics that tell a story...also, Quorthon of Bathory on early albums used what he calls "Painting with words," which actually uses the lyrics as an instrument (rather than the vocals). The lyrics create an atmosphere that you imagine for yourself; a good example of this is also Slayer's Angel of Death, where Araya just starts screaming random grotesque images at you, creating an atmosphere of pain and torture. So there. Lyrics are awesome.

 

[Vimana]

If lyrics often detracted from the richness of a musical experience then why are they in almost all music?

 

[hibernal_dream]

I don't consider lyrics part of the musical language. Technically singing is music (it has rhythm and melody) but the lyrics themselves are not.

In music, I prefer ideas to be expressed in a non-verbal fashion rather than spoken/sung. Lyrics remove some of the abstraction in music, and it is abstraction and its necessity for interpretation in the mind of the listener which is what makes music so great. It's part of the mystery and the magic of it all - you don't want to have everything put on a silver plate in front of you. I don't know why most 20th century music uses lyrics - probably because it's easy to do, easy to understand and sells more to those who don't understand music.

I don't find metal lyrics necessary to understand most music, though they are sometimes worth reading apart from it. If they ARE necessary to understand it, the accompanying music cannot be particularly expressive. Metal isn't like opera where they help in the presentation of a story. If a band is singing meaningless syllables instead of comprehensible lyrics it would not make much difference to me at all, as long as the melody and rhythm in the singing is still there.