Dresden - all's fair in love and war, or not?
- Thread starter JayKeeley
- Start date
spaffe
Geisterglut
JayKeeley said:
I understand what you are saying but I fail to see the logic behind such actions. Innocent people were killed in London, but how does that make it OK to kill innocent people in Germany? By doing that one's not punishing the guys responible (which could perhaps justify it) but rather killing more civilans.
JayKeeley said:
But what were they (or "you" if you like
) at war against? Yes, "Germany", but what is "Germany" in this context? Everyone with a german birth certificate? Everyone in the SS, Wehrmacht etc? Only the men responsible (ie the highest ranking militaries and polititians)? The anti-democratic ideology? As I see it, it's very problematic how should be "punished".And also, you're beside the point with the above post, the targets in Dresden had nothing to do with the war effort.
JayKeely said:
But bombing Dresden would hardly have stopped him developing one. Had he not forced the jews (which inclued many able scientists who later helped the US develop their bomb) to leave Germany, then perhaps he would have got his hands on one. But I also recall reading that he referred to nuclear-physics as "jew-physics" for a pretty long period of time
lizard
Member
was Dresden an atrocity? yes. but Germany opened the ball when Goering and Hitler decided that the way to crush the British spirit was to attack London as a whole as opposed to strictly military sites. Merely one of Hitler's stupid ideas.
but these neonazi morons aren't rational anyway, so a rational debate with them is pointless.
but these neonazi morons aren't rational anyway, so a rational debate with them is pointless.
spaffe said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's ok. If anything, I'm saying I'm against war as a whole. What I'm questioning is whether Germany (yes, Germany "east west, north and south") has a right to complain about anything. Japan? yes, maybe. Germany? It's a bit of a stretch.
Again, all I'm saying is that Germany got off easy by comparison. Geography probably helped that. Japan is quite isolated and so nuclear fallout might kill a few thousand fish in the ocean at most. Also, they're Japs - a completely different history and culture to the USA. Drop a few A-bombs in Germany however, and all neighboring countries are fucked. That would have done America no good in eventually assimilating Europe in as its bitch.
spaffe
Geisterglut
JayKeeley said:
I think you're missing (or avoiding) my point. What takes away the german civilian's right to complain? I assume you're refering to some guilt of some kind, but what?
JayKeely said:
As I've understood things in regard to the use of nuclear weapons against Japan, the official version refers to the potential loss of lives a ground invasion of Japan would have caused. The yanks had a hard time fighting their way to Japan from island to island in the pacific and an invasion of the main island would in all likelihood have been an extremly bloody affair. But then there's also the question if a major reason for dropping the bombs in the first place wasn't just to show the Soviet union, which the US probably realized whould be it's major enemy in a theoreical continuation of the war, that they had and could/would use a-bombs.
I've also read/heard somewhere that Japan had already agreed to surrender before the bombs were dropped but that Truman wanted to test his new toys and ignored it. Not that I've read a terrible ammount of books on the subject,but that's not something I've come across in the more accepted accounts -- because of it's implications for the US or it's falsity I couldn't tell.
As for the germans, they could be defeated by the russians without the use of nuclear weapons, and according to some historians, without the US as well. I think that was the main reason, along with the one you stated of course.
lizard
Member
in terms of the fear of the Japanese defense of their homeland, there is a really interesting book called "The Last Mission" which is about the last air attack on Tokyo...the Japanese actually had a plan to arm all citizens with bamboo spears if necessary, and fight to the death. This was essentially stopped when the Emperor read his declaration to stop fighting. What is less known, and the book brings out, is that the hardcore army and navy leaders actually tried to stop the Emperors broadcast but their plan was foiled when some bombs hit part of the royal compound (although the Americans were supposed to avoid hitting it).
The resultant power failure kept what was basically a coup attempt from succeeding, and when the Emperor issued his decree, the military followed his divine instructions and laid down their arms.
The resultant power failure kept what was basically a coup attempt from succeeding, and when the Emperor issued his decree, the military followed his divine instructions and laid down their arms.
cthulufhtagn
Went Out for Smokes 13 Years Ago
a lot of japanese military commanders were eagerly awaiting an allied invasion of the home islands so they would have a chance to end the war on more favorable terms. they had this idea of "gyokusai" ("shattered jewels"), that every japanese citizen would fight to the death against the US. even at that point, where the situation was so desperate, they decided to surrender not because of the suffering of the japanese people (bombings, sickness, food shortages) but because they wanted to insure the continuation of the imperial system. believe it or not, many military higher-ups saw the atomic bombs as a "gift from the gods", because it gave them a reason to end the war without "dishonor".lizard said:
ironically, in july of 1945 when the potsdam declaration was being drafted, the US refused to include a provision insuring the emperor would remain in place, thus guaranteeing japan would refuse it. but in the end, the emperor was left in place anyway. oops, guess those atomic bombs weren't necessary after all. not to force japan to concede defeat, at any rate--they were first and foremost a show of force to the soviets. politics always takes precedence over human rights.
spaffe said:
Eh? What guilt? I'm honestly not sure what the confusion is. Here we go:
Country A attacks Country B.
Country B retaliates and attacks Country A.
Country A gets its ass kicked and 60 years later is still whining like a bitch.
We're not talking about 12 Saudi's flying planes into the NY towers and then the US going to war in Iraq. This is Germany vs. Rest of Europe. Not individual groups of people, but entire countries at war. Like I keep saying, Germany (the entire country) got off easy compared to Japan (the entire country).
When Britain went to war, it wasn't the British Infantry vs. German Nazis, it was Britain vs. Germany. EVERYONE is included in this equation, and certainly everyone did their part to help in the war effort. You've seen the war posters and documentaries with the women making bomb shells, volunteering as nurses, etc. The old retired men took up arms and defended their villages. You ever seen "Dad's Army"?
anonymousnick2001
World's Greatest Vocalist
War itself is a terrible thing, and Dresden was an atrocity.
But so was London. Is the fact that the town was practically razed to the ground ignorable because more Brits survived than the thousands that perished in Dresden?
Dresden = London
End the whining. I also agree with JayKeeley about Japan in relation to Germany.
But so was London. Is the fact that the town was practically razed to the ground ignorable because more Brits survived than the thousands that perished in Dresden?
Dresden = London
End the whining. I also agree with JayKeeley about Japan in relation to Germany.
lizard
Member
NAD
What A Horrible Night To Have A Curse
Not sure if anyone noticed, but a lot of those weird German spam/worm emails have to do with Dresden. Nifty! RADICAL!
lizard
Member
NAD
What A Horrible Night To Have A Curse
NAD
What A Horrible Night To Have A Curse
Bodies fill the fields I see, hungry heroes end
No one to play soldier now, no one to pretend
Running blind through killing fields, bred to kill them all
Victim of what said should be
A servant 'til I fall
Soldier boy, made of clay
Now an empty shell
Twenty one, only son
But he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
Do just as we say
Finished here, greetings death
He's yours to take away
Back to the front
You will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
You will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front
You coward
You servant
You blindman
Barking of machinegun fire, does nothing to me now
Sounding of the clock that ticks, get used to it somehow
More a man, more stripes you bare, glory seeker trends
Bodies fill the fields I see
The slaughter never ends
Soldier boy, made of clay
Now an empty shell
Twenty one, only son
But he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
Do just as we say
Finished here, greetings death
He's yours to take away
Back to the front
You will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
You will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front
You coward
You servant
You blindman
Why, am I dying?
Kill, have no fear
Lie, live off lying
Hell, hell is here
I was born for dying
Life planned out before my birth, nothing could I say
Had no chance to see myself, molded day by day
Looking back I realize, nothing have I done
Left to die with only friend
Alone I clench my gun
Soldier boy, made of clay
Now an empty shell
Twenty one, only son
But he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
Do just as we say
Finished here, greetings death
He's yours to take away
Back to the front
You will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
You will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front
You coward
You servant
You blindman
Back to the front
No one to play soldier now, no one to pretend
Running blind through killing fields, bred to kill them all
Victim of what said should be
A servant 'til I fall
Soldier boy, made of clay
Now an empty shell
Twenty one, only son
But he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
Do just as we say
Finished here, greetings death
He's yours to take away
Back to the front
You will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
You will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front
You coward
You servant
You blindman
Barking of machinegun fire, does nothing to me now
Sounding of the clock that ticks, get used to it somehow
More a man, more stripes you bare, glory seeker trends
Bodies fill the fields I see
The slaughter never ends
Soldier boy, made of clay
Now an empty shell
Twenty one, only son
But he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
Do just as we say
Finished here, greetings death
He's yours to take away
Back to the front
You will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
You will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front
You coward
You servant
You blindman
Why, am I dying?
Kill, have no fear
Lie, live off lying
Hell, hell is here
I was born for dying
Life planned out before my birth, nothing could I say
Had no chance to see myself, molded day by day
Looking back I realize, nothing have I done
Left to die with only friend
Alone I clench my gun
Soldier boy, made of clay
Now an empty shell
Twenty one, only son
But he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
Do just as we say
Finished here, greetings death
He's yours to take away
Back to the front
You will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
You will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front
You coward
You servant
You blindman
Back to the front
lizard
Member
Bravo Two Zero >>>> any other non-fiction war novel ever!!
Shame the film was crap. Sean Bean made a better Boromir.
Shame the film was crap. Sean Bean made a better Boromir.
lizard
Member
yeah that was pretty good...and his other SAS book where he was talking about doing HALO (high altitude low opening) jumps, and describing how if you have microscopic air bubbles in a tooth filling, the tooth will explode...man that gave me the heebie jeebies! His novels are kinda entertaining, his character is a badass, but he's a badass who's got problemsJayKeeley said:
Bravo Two Zero - right up there on par with My War, I Miss it So
I've never actually read any of his other books other than B20. The SAS are just so fucking cool though. What else should I read of his?
I wonder if we'll get any new SAS accounts from recent excursions into Iraq or Baghdad? Perhaps another Andy McNabb in the making?
By the way, I went to Wales once -- as you know, lots of military training there, including SAS stuff. Anyway, have you ever stood on the peak of a valley, and watched Tornado GR4's fly past you, at a lower level than where you're standing? I have! It's quite remarkable.
Fricckin' RAF - whether it be Spitfires back in WW2 or Tornado Low Level flying, they are gods among insects.
I wonder if we'll get any new SAS accounts from recent excursions into Iraq or Baghdad? Perhaps another Andy McNabb in the making?
By the way, I went to Wales once -- as you know, lots of military training there, including SAS stuff. Anyway, have you ever stood on the peak of a valley, and watched Tornado GR4's fly past you, at a lower level than where you're standing? I have! It's quite remarkable.
Fricckin' RAF - whether it be Spitfires back in WW2 or Tornado Low Level flying, they are gods among insects.
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