Ebay Ethics

[jem777az]

Not sure if it's worth the hassle. I still see a difference between value and cost. If it's a band I really like (say Angra), I'd rather have the item than $200.

Would I sell my Angra Reaching Horizons tape for $200? No. Now, if you offer me $300....

I can see your point but not everyone thinks like that. How much are they selling these for at their shows? The price of a ticket plus the cost of the LP means they are still going to make at least double if not triple or more what they spent. If they are buying multiple items it goes up even more?

You wouldn't take $250? Greedy fuck!

 

[AeonicSlumber]

You can't have a thread with ebay in the title and then piss and moan every time someone brings up supply and demand. Its a fundamental principle of modern society.

A) I'm not pissing nor moaning. I love this idea that I have some kind of personal stake here; I couldn't care less besides the fact that I think this is a very interesting issue and that I felt two people gave me insufficient answers. Even though I don't agree with you either, you at least provide more to say in your post than simply "HUUR DUURR ITS OKAY FOR ME TO DO IT".

B) I never said that the fundamentals of economics that make Ebay so successful are taboo. I said I'd like more to the discussion than that because this is an issue that goes deeper than that I think. But fair enough to you I suppose.

Also, this has been happening for a while and Agalloch still puts out limited edition stuff (usually only available while on tour). The band isn't stupid; they know this is going to happen. Thus, if they had a problem with it, I'm sure they'd stop doing it or change the way they do it (as several people have mentioned already).

Do you think that necessarily makes it right though? I don't.

Finally, for those that live in California, it is / was cheaper to see the show locally and then ebay the DLP as opposed to traveling to the other side of the country to attend a show where they are selling those DLPs.

Yeah but still, that doesn't make it right. It's just a shame that people don't buy these products because they want the product, but because they want to make a profit themselves. Even if the band approves of it, or turns the other cheek to it, I still think it's a slap in the face and lousy fandom. Certainly, it's a slap in the face to you for having to spend way more money on the DLP than you should've.

That's what I'm saying. That they DO know how much these are fetching. That's why they are marking them up so high. You don't have to be a fan of a band to understand the economics behind what collectible merch is bringing on eBay.

Okay now I see what you were saying. Sorry. To be fair (to myself lol), I never really said that the demographic of the people doing this was fans. In fact my whole argument is that they AREN'T fans if they're doing this. Just greedy bastards. Like AngraRULES said, sometimes the value of the product is more important than the money. It's like those people who buy action figures and keep them in their cases for 50 years, hoping to sell them when they get older. C'mon, can you be any lamer? (and all joking aside, I have more respect for those dudes than the dudes who turn around and sell limited edition band stuff marked up the ass only a few weeks after buying it. That's just sickening if you ask me.)

 

[Mardoch]

I'm of two minds on this score. On the one hand, the band still got their cut of their own asking price, so the grey market doesn't really matter. On the other hand, you're a real dick for doing things like this. Just saying "supply and demand" doesn't make you not a huge asshole.

As a fan, it would take an extraordinary situation to make me part with any of my swag. I've got some old shirts I'm considering framing because they're approaching too beaten to wear. So I call into question the fandom of those that take this approach to making a quick buck.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Also FYI to those who think Agalloch doesn't care about this sort of stuff:

http://www.myspace.com/agalloch/blog/541769164

 

[James]

That doesn't make sense though man. If they didn't know why would they mark it up on Ebay for a 400% margin? One would think if they didn't know, they wouldn't be marking it up so high at all... Also the seller's innocence gets even more suspicious when the reality is that MANY people are doing it, not just one or two as per the pic in my OP eludes to.

Just out of curiosity: if the person selling the merchandise lists these items in a "no reserve" auction with a starting bid of $0.99, and they sell for $150+ because that's how much the high bidder was willing to pay, do you still have a problem with the seller?

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Just out of curiosity: if the person selling the merchandise lists these items in a "no reserve" auction with a starting bid of $0.99, and they sell for $150+ because that's how much the high bidder was willing to pay, do you still have a problem with the seller?

If it's an item that was JUST released and he turned around and sold it the next day, week or month, honestly yes, at least ethically. It's still taking advantage of the band, the label, and the fans. Not as much of a problem as the other scenario though, because at least the power to decide the price is in the hands of the buyer 100%. The highest bid could have been $40 and it would have ended there. So while it's "bad," it's not as bad. That being said, while I have a problem with it ethically I do not have a problem with it economically, as I've stated before.

Edit: I'm assuming your example is the product of a bidding war and not just one guy who decides to pay 150 bucks and win the auction on his own. That's just dumb on the buyer's part lol.

 

[Prog_Please]

Also FYI to those who think Agalloch doesn't care about this sort of stuff:

http://www.myspace.com/agalloch/blog/541769164

That's not the same thing...

 

[Diabolik]

Not sure if it's worth the hassle. I still see a difference between value and cost. If it's a band I really like (say Angra), I'd rather have the item than $200.

Would I sell my Angra Reaching Horizons tape for $200? No. Now, if you offer me $300....

Very true...I have lots of stuff in different collections that go for lots of money but I would never sell them just because I want it...that is why I bought it.

But for example...you were at a show and knew that something could fetch a good price on ebay....say they do 1 per person and something....just have a few freinds go buy 1 and the sell those on ebay. It is a screwy system. But I guess if there are people out there who will pay that price for it. I guess it is why it is happening.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

That's not the same thing...

It's not entirely the same, but it's relevant to the argument because it's an example of unethical advantage-taking. Conversely, it's within the boundaries of sound economics. By your same metric as before, it's perfectly legal within Ebay standards for that guy to mark up that item. He bought it originally, he can do whatever he wants with it right?

And do you think he would have marked that poster up so high to take advantage of fans accidentally? Do you think the band would use the word "Another" because this is a unique issue? Please, you're lying to yourself to justify countless other crappy sellers if you think the band approves of what I addressed in my OP, but just not this.

 

[James]

Edit: I'm assuming your example is the product of a bidding war and not just one guy who decides to pay 150 bucks and win the auction on his own. That's just dumb lol.

It actually would have to be: if the starting bid is $0.99, I can say I'm willing to pay up to $150 (but only eBay knows this, the seller does not), and if no one else bids, I still get the item for $0.99.

In the example of the 'Whitedivisiongrey - 2 LP - Splatter Vinyl" auction, the bidding started at $100, but there have been 8 bids placed, and the price is now $177.50 (the price has probably gone up because your post alerted everyone to the auction's existence ).

 

[AeonicSlumber]

In the example of the 'Whitedivisiongrey - 2 LP - Splatter Vinyl" auction, the bidding started at $100, but there have been 8 bids placed, and the price is now $177.50 (the price has probably gone up because your post alerted everyone to the auction's existence ).

Well I- uh....


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[James]

I guess the road to hell really is paved with good intentions

It would, however, be pure genius if it were actually the MetalSucks dudes selling the stuff!

 

[Prog_Please]

It's not entirely the same, but it's relevant to the argument because it's an example of unethical advantage-taking. Conversely, it's within the boundaries of sound economics. By your same metric as before, it's perfectly legal within Ebay standards for that guy to mark up that item. He bought it originally, he can do whatever he wants with it right?

And do you think he would have marked that poster up so high to take advantage of fans accidentally? Do you think the band would use the word "Another" because this is a unique issue? Please, you're lying to yourself to justify countless other crappy sellers if you think the band approves of what I addressed in my OP, but just not this.

My point was that in this instance (that was posted on the Agalloch site), the seller is claiming its a limited edition poster to 60 copies, when in fact you can still buy it from the store (false advertising to make a sale / the item sound more valuable than it is to rip off fans). In the OP, the DLP IS limited to 500 copies that you can't buy from a store.

 

[Jasonic]

Record Collectors are Pretentious Assholes!!!!!!
Believe me, as a former vinyl junkie, I can smell one a mile away.............

Look, we can sit here and go in circles for days.

This is nothing new. eBay and such has just glorified it in more recent times.

Bands were releasing limited presses of vinyl that fetched large $$$ long before eBay.

I would guess today, esp with the internet, you have a mixed bag of fans and non-fans seeking out rare stuff for resale.

I am a lifelong MISFITS fan who at one time owned every single original 45 release, except for one.

Guess what? Once eBay came along and you could sell their stuff at absurd prices right in the comfort of your boxer shorts, its sometimes hard to hold onto!
Especially as I got older and had car payments, mortgage payments, etc, etc....

Finally, in the digital age, I am sure many who originally purchase soon to be rare vinyl realize that an MP3 version of the album is sufficient, and the novelty of the limited press wears off quickly once you see how much you can get for it.

Vinyl collecting is not at all what it used to be.
Back in the day, records went for a LOT of money simply because the bands themself were obscure and difficult to find, pre net.

Now, the bands and labels create the limited item.

So, in the end, if the band and label releases rarities and makes their original asking price, there is no reason for you to get upset what it goes for in the secondary market, regardless if sold by a fan or not.................

 

[AeonicSlumber]

My point was that in this instance (that was posted on the Agalloch site), the seller is claiming its a limited edition poster to 60 copies, when in fact you can still buy it from the store (false advertising to make a sale / the item sound more valuable than it is to rip off fans). In the OP, the DLP IS limited to 500 copies that you can't buy from a store.

Doesn't matter.

 

[modernwizardry]

Just don't forget to pre-order and you'll be fine.

But yeah, it sucks...but people are greedy.

It's like the people who make a living buying up tickets to the hottest concerts and then sell them for profits.

 

[Magius]

One always has the option not to buy. The only ones being taken advantage of are those who are willing to let it happen. I suspect the majority of those who do so go into a transaction fully aware of what they are doing, and can afford it.

 

[DustyV]

If you are not copying the thing but selling the exact same thing as you bought, I really don't see where ethics are involved. As I said before, once you buy something you are free to do whatever you want with it.

I agree with this part.....If people aren't wililng to spend that kind of dough, then the prices will come down.. But if people are insane enough to spend their hard earned money on something like that, then oh well ..

I've made thousands of dollars from ebay by buying collectable items(such as old beer steins, collectible books etc) and then turning around and selling them for quite a bit more on ebay than they were orginally put up for...People always buy...

I know that scenario is different than what you are talking about, but it goes to show you the awesome capitalistic power of ebay.

 

[rms]

On this subject personally, I think metal music selling shouldn't become a business as such, with selling rare or out of print cds for higher. I personally do not like to sell anything more than what I paid for it, doesn't seem fair and not necessarily buying these cds to make money, people should hear the music and not have the financial motives in their head. But the world is gay, people are posers so this will always happen

 

[AeonicSlumber]

I agree with this part.....If people aren't wililng to spend that kind of dough, then the prices will come down.. But if people are insane enough to spend their hard earned money on something like that, then oh well ..

I've made thousands of dollars from ebay by buying collectable items(such as old beer steins, collectible books etc) and then turning around and selling them for quite a bit more on ebay than they were orginally put up for...People always buy...

I know that scenario is different than what you are talking about, but it goes to show you the awesome capitalistic power of ebay.

Oh yeah, I own a bunch of collectibles that are worth money that I sell. idk though, to me it's a bit different with bands. Especially small metal bands. I just feel that there's a special intangible sense of "community" with small bands like that, and you feel like you are getting something really special when you buy a limited edition vinyl or shirt on tour directly from the band you know? It's different from collecting cards or stamps or beanie babies or whatever. That's just me though, I'm sure to some people it's sentimental and hoakey.