Emulated metal requires a very different thought process

[Klosure]

I have spent much time chasing my own tail with using emulated sounds over the years.


Recently in the studio I had chance to listen in on a great session and I snuck on the desk to check out the raw tracks.


The distorted guitar was my first surprise. Is just sat in the mix with the bass perfectly. It sounded creamy (it was a VHT amp into a quality old marshal cab)

Then it struck. I am trying to treat emulations like I do with real things and thats been my mistake for some time. Emulated sound be it Amplitube, Guitar Rig or IR stuff like recabinet are just as fake. I think I have expected too much from them.


Recently I tried using my demonizer pedal into recabinet - what crap. It was just as muffled as the emulations. Everything sounds shrill and lacking in huge qualitys that drive guitar along and help with the energy opf the track.


But my mind is turning, I am not completly slating the development of emulations, however I think I need to be more selective and spend a bit more time seeing this process from a different angle.

Any suggestions- have you had a similar experience?

This issue does not seem to effect bass so much (I have had good success with sansamp and Ampeg on bass)

 

[elapidae1]

Try going from the emulator to a power amp and cab and forget about impulses. See what you think that way.

 

[bassguy]

In my opinion digital distortion just sounds quite flat and one dimensional. Then standard cabinet impulses have even more of that flat, lifeless and completely un-dynamic sound about them.

I've heard very good things from cab simulations made with nebula (i.e these ones: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...ams-guitar-cabs-kalthallen-cabs-released.html) however the best results seem to come from when it's used with real heads. Still a big improvement upon standard IR's though

I've also heard some really good stuff from real amp heads + the torpedo.


Just seems to me that most amp sims aren't quite there yet. With certain technology (like nebula or the torpedo) the cabs have become convincing enough, but the modelling of the head's is still a problem, and I guess it's still a problem that all the big name amp sims available are still just using IR's rather than something that will provide a much more realistic sounding simulation.

I have tried for a very long time to get amp sims sounding as good as the real thing, and recently I just gave up on it completely. I think that the technology still needs some work, so for now the best solution is to get one or two nice tube amp heads and either nebula with some good cab libraries or the torpedo (there's a software version of the torpedo as well). Or better yet get a cab and some mics

And if that's all too much $$ for right now, track bands through amp sims and have the DI's reamped by someone, dozens of people on this forum do reamping.



tl;dr version - If you want the sound of a real amp, you need a real amp. But also bear in mind that not EVERYTHING requires the sound of a real amp, lot's of core bands do a pretty good job of getting away with using pod for guitars, and djent bands seem to all be using the axe-fx. imo these are just what creates the guitar sound used in those genres, like how 5150/recto tones seem to make up 80% of the tones we typically hear in metal

 

[Firaxis]

I think it's the sound of the room you are missing, I beleive that's what gives the organic qualities to a tone.

 

[Sloan]

impulses are not dynamic. speakers are dynamic and react differently to different sounds/volumes/amps/etc....

i also find it a bit harder to work with the emulations/impulses, but just get it to sound as good as you can, that's all you can do really.

 

[Scottxx]

Axe FX II is emulation and lot of pro guys are using it. Its just the cost of it. There is hardware and software out there to make great almost real guitar sounds in the digital world.

 

[Leon--]

Nothing like the real thing

 

[smy1]

I think you were possibly listening to a better engineer than you are (no offense intended) ... I know n00bs who can't get a good sound from a Bogner -> SM57 -> 1073 chain. And I know dudes who can make ampsims sound amazing. It's the hands of the player and the ears of the engineer.

 

[Pot]

in the end smy1 speaks the truth

 

[AD Chaos]

IMO one of the ''inherent'' problems with emulations is volume itself. If you're using emulations, chances are you're not cranking it nearly as much as you would your amp(s).
Just now I was using one and thinking about the 'ghost' effect coming from 2 tracks panned hard through the monitors and going behind you.. Not the same thing as a 'true source' (if that makes sense), in-your-face cab speaker.



* speaking more about playing, that a mix or something else

 

[SentencedToBurn]

IMO one of the ''inherent'' problems with emulations is volume itself. If you're using emulations, chances are you're not cranking it nearly as much as you would your amp(s).
Just now I was using one and thinking about the 'ghost' effect coming from 2 tracks panned hard through the monitors and going behind you.. Not the same thing as a 'true source' (if that makes sense), in-your-face cab speaker.



* speaking more about playing, that a mix or something else

do you think? i am thinking the opposite. usually if im playing a fender blues deluxe or deville... or even any hi-watt amp, the volume is at 3. and thats loud!! with amp sims the volume is cranked about half way which would just blow your ears off if it was a real amp.
i know the knobs and layout of a sim is supposed to behave like the real amp, but usually they dont. you have to tweak it different to get a sound similar to the real thing.

 

[domingooo]

I think it's the sound of the room you are missing, I beleive that's what gives the organic qualities to a tone.

You got me thinking a while about that

i've mixed two tracks with ampsims... one has a room impulse added (from god's cabs guys)

Do you listen any diference? i do...

 

[jENK]

Amp & cab sims are getting really close but they're not quite there yet. There's nothing like the real deal, however, the engineer plays more of a part in it. If you have the skills, it's quite possible to pull great sounds using sims. I've been recording real amps and cabs for over 10 years but it wasn't 'til recently that I challenged myself to try and achieve an excellent and realistic guitar sound using a sim. It took time but I did it and you could barely tell the difference. I think having the experience of working with real stuff helps understand simulators. It's probably harder to get decent sounds with the sims for somebody who doesn't record real amps and cabs. Always try to use a real tube amp, quality cab and mic/mic pre, but if you don't have the resources it's quite possible to pull something okay out of a sim. They're great for writing and pre-production.