Evolution in Songwriting

Necramentia

no stop go away
Feb 18, 2004
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16
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After studying various artists for some time, such as Opeth, Dimmu, Emperor, Gorgoroth, and other bands who have been around for some time, I have noticed that as time passes, composition ability increases, yet musical ideas seem to be fewer. Opeth's first efforts were more Progressive BM, while today the sound is, while still maintaining a prog sound, more like pop death metal. All these bands seem to slowly drift toward the mainstream, while all the while being experimental, yet becoming much more widely ear friendly in a sense. What I was wondering was how people felt about this sort of evolution in songwriting, if people feel that it is good to change in this sense, or if you see it as a compromise of one's art. Well?
 
personally, i think opeth should have stook with the orchid and morningrise sound, but it was the in the best interest of the band to move on, since the whole scene around them was pissing them off.
I also think emperor should have made more in the nightside eclipse sounding records.
Dimmu just progressed into something arguably better, but are now taking some steps back.
People just get tired of the playing the same music, you could tell that each opeth album as well as every emperor and dimmu borgir album have their own identity.
 
I personally feel that this is not necessarily a bad thing, just a different thing. It depends on where your mood takes you. Sometimes I'm feeling Morningrise, sometimes I'm feeling Blackwater Park. I mean, if it's a black metal kind of time, i'd never listen to Prometheus, but if i want something just in your face I'd probably listen to Puritanical Euphoric Misanthropia. There are exceptions, like I'd never listen to Metallica's Load.
 
Definitly agreed with the idea that composing increases while ideas decrease. Prometheus was an intolerable album musicaly, but I still enjoy listening to it from a structural perspective. As far as Opeth go, Morningrise and Orchid are genius, but MAYH and Still Life are much more compositionaly mature. D1 + D2 and Blackwater Park are a little simpler, and seem to be more focused on production, which is a shame.
 
I have to admit i like the early albums because of they rawness about them but i doubt Mike wanted to stay with that sound, i mean who wants to write the same music for a few years. The newer albums show a definate growth and maturity. They have certainly found their grove and im glad that they still sound like Opeth.
In the end its good to move on but lets hope they dont forget who they are, where they came from, and that they just dont fucking sell out cos its happened to the best of bands ...
 
Actually in the case of Emperor, the music certainly did not become more mainstream. The production quality had increased, but I think that's only because the guys realized it was stupid to make their recordings inaudible. As time wore on Emperor grew technically as much as it did idealistically, and more ideas flourished. 'Prometheus' is a masterpiece and is certainly not mainstream in any way whatsoever.

With Opeth, it was more about styles. When they left the Orchid and Morningrise era behind them to start with MAYH it was almost like a new band. They incorporated new ideas into their music.. there was a major rehaul.. not every riff was harmonized, the song structures were more tight and the songs flowed better. It could be argued that MAYH still remains their heaviest album to date. You COULD certainly say that MAYH is alot more ear-friendly than the first two, but I like to believe that's largely because of the production. I mean In Flames did the dual-guitar thing too, and look where they are now.

Opeth then hit Still Life, which in my opinion is their peak.. the epitome of their style and music. It was like they nailed the perfect balance of progressive(ness) and metal, melancholy and soothing ambience. I love Orchid, and I always will, but I love Still Life just as well in a whole different sense... they are two different albums and Still Life is by no means compromised in any way.. if anything their technical abilities had increased substantially in that time, and the music had only increased in complexity. The only things mainstream-friendly on that album are the two ballads, Benighted and Face of Melinda, with the rest being amonst some of the most fucked up riff-induced pieces of musical literature I've ever heard in my entire life. In my opinion ever since Still Life, they have not reached this level of genius.

When Opeth hit BWP, this is when they started compromising. IMHO as soon as Steve Wilson hit the table, Opeth's music immediately had to accomodate that. Whether or not they actively changed anything, SW's influence moved Opeth away from that dark melancholic progressive realm they inhabited to try new things, new things that ultimately, and also unfortunately led them to Deliverance.

Deliverance is the product of rushed time in the studio, and whilst the band and most fans are happy with it, I certainly am not. Deliverance to me is the most boring of the Opeth albums, and gets quite tedious to listen to after you hear the ending of Deliverance 20, 000 times. It's nice that they tried new things with By The Pain I See in others, and certain production elements in other tracks, but that's about all... I couldn't see the genius of Opeth that I saw in times past.

In general practice, what you describe does not have to be the path of bands, yet it certainly is for many. For Emperor it certainly is not, whilst for Opeth it kind of is. I guess you could say in my mind Opeth started 'selling out' with BWP, because ironically when they started gaining more recognition for their music, I started appreciating it less. Not saying BWP is not an awesome fucking album by no means, but it pales in comparison to the giants of the past. Deliverance probably isn't even worth mentioning as the only high point to that seems to be the 15 yr old slipknot fans who love the end of Deliverance, despite having dissed the fuck out of Meshuggah. I don't think Opeth actively made a conscious decision that they would make their music more accessible, no I doubt they would ever do that... but that IS what has happened in my opinion. Coincidentally, ever since Steve Wilson took the helm I kept losing that feel I had for Opeth.

This is why I'm so fucking pissed off that he's taking the reigns again for the next album.
 
Agreed on most points, Moonlapse. Steve does his own thing quite well, but if you'd told any Opeth fan 6 years ago that they'd be working together, they'd just laugh at you. IMO Opeth's KEY originality was their ability to blend quiet and soothing folk into their twisted and extremly interesting metal mix. By abolishing the folk, and replacing it with prog rock (and on top of that split it down the middle with D1+D2), there's realy nothing new or original. Deliverance sounds bland, and similar to many other death metal bands (Master Apprentices anyone?) and Damnation is just a tribute to 70's prog rock. The skillfull ability to blend heavy and mellow disapeared... and we may or may not have Steven Wilson to thank for that.
 
I love every album, although Deliverance has a few weak parts and i'm missing the folk elements. Every album is awesome, though.

And to me, the last section of Deliverance is just powerful and genius.
 
What was said in this thread so far can be true.


But the biggest reason in my opinion, is not that bands are getting more stream with their writing....


the scene is becoming more mainstream in general.


If by "pop" sounding, you mean more catchy and accesible...that isnt necessarily a mainstream direction...thats simply good songwriting on their part.

For a band like gorgoroth (as an example you previously stated) to appeal to anyone outside of their usual realm...would not be because they are going mainstream (thier new album is NOT)...its because their writing got better in general, and therfore more accesible, and i guess what you would call "pop" sounding.


Thus: what you said was correct in a way, but the order and motive wasnt the same in my opinion.

If you need further proof...look at the ozzfest lineup this year, vs. the last 3 years. The underground bands on the bill this year didnt get more mainstream....the mainstream got more underground.
 
i wouldn't say deliverance is a more mainstream sound.

I agree that they have had less interesting ideas recently compared to orchid and morningrise, however i like their stuff SL onwards better as the songs flow MUCH better. In quite a few parts of orchid and morningrise i feel that songs could have been ended at certain stages but they just kept going for the sake of it, anyway flame me if u will but its my opinion.
 
I'd say that even brutal death metal vocals are much more accepted by people these days. You gotta look at bands like Morbid Angel and Death to see that over the time they've been around, they've made quite an impact. Many more people today would be willing to sit down and listen to some deathly growls than they would 10-15 years ago.
 
Lord Hypnos, I'd really like to have a look at those line-ups, but I don't know where to start looking, or really want to rummage through all the Ozzfest rubbish to get to what I need. Would you be as kind as to post this year's line-up along with those for the past 3 years?

Cheers.
 
people usually slam deliverance because its repetitive.. i mean yeah it is, the end of deliverance and parts of wreath (which is my fav song off there), and other parts of songs.. but then they turn around and praise black rose immortal, which has its fair share of repeating in it too.. that long acoustic part after the climax of the song comes to mind.

i really love the first 4 albums a lot. i love the guitar harmonies. i think the beautiful heavy and then mellow harmonies are what make opeth opeth. and as you listen to the albums in order, you start to see them disappear. in MAHY, they didnt do the strict dual guitar harmonies, but more tighter harmony sound that produced riffs like the run away riff, credence, and other incredible opeth moments. Then you hit still life, while its not my favorite album, i agree it is their best work. Everything is complex and melodic, and they tried TONS of new things on still life... white cluster solo, the acoustic middle of godhead, and the jazzy stuff you hear in moonlapse and a bit of benighted.

because of this, i dont think opeth had many directions to go in.. and thats how we got blackwater park. which has some good things, but not very many innovations. then deliverance blah.. theres no guitar harmonization.. just basic leads and things. the riffs suffer in diverseness and such. is it still a good album? yes.. i like wreath a lot, and most of the songs have their great moments.

ive lost any point i might have had.. i dont know, im just rambling at this point
 
Moonlapse said:
'Prometheus' is a masterpiece and is certainly not mainstream in any way whatsoever.
Compare Empty to Wrath of the Tyrant. You'll see, more poppy phrasing, a generally more ear friendly sound (and not just because of production), like that part with the weird ass synth loop.

And to respond to you all about this use of the word "pop", i meant accessible, more generally ear friendly. I know plenty of people who have gotten really into albums like Deliverance and Blackwater Park because I showed them to them, but could not sit through anything off Orchid or Morningrise. It's not pop like Opeth going boy band, it's more catchy, thus reaching out to more people, yet not bending over for everyone. That's why I brought this up, because it's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just straying from origins.
 
While I liked Steven Wilson's work in Blackwater Park, I fully agree with Moonlapse's post on Damnation and Deliverance.
And I though I was the only one who hated Deliverance's(song) ending, while everyone else was going gaga over its drumming.
And while I would consider Orchid to be the Opeth album with the most staying power, I ceratinly wouldn't wan't them to do something like it again.