fear of death

i do think that we are just animals too... but sometimes theres just something that makes it seem like we are so much more... and that we have spirits that move on... In Kurt Voneguets "slaughter house five" the main character talks about these aliens who tought him the secret to begin "stuck in time" he talks about how as humans we are stick living life moment by moment and not absorbing and experienceing anymoment we want through our memories... it talks about how people do not actually die... its just that in that moment of time they are not doing so well... however if you look back two years they are fine happy and healthy... we have to stop living life moment by moment and take it for all that it is... i dont know if this was taken from somewhere else... but in Dee Sniders strangeland, as he is tourting someone who is crying... Dee Snider says something along these lines (not a direct quote)

Your crying? crying is for children... your no longer a child the minute you realize your going to die...

i just thought i would say those things... Hi im new here by the way...
 
In all honesty, I can't see what's so scary about the big dark void of death. What was so bad about not being born? Death is the same thing.

Still, people suffer from fear of death, and it's the same reason that all human suffering exists, which I will explain (note: subjective bullshit alert, these are just ideas which make sense to me, I'm not saying they are literally true or not, just something I find helpful/logical/comforting, and above all, NOT scary).

The universe exists is a state of constant flux. This change is forever unceasing. That's a given. Everything in the universe is a result of this process of constant change, every atom, every planet, every chemical reaction, every life form. Nothing is excluded. Change dictates that nothing is forever, so that which has come into being will eventually come to pass and the energy which composes it will be transformed into something else. No stretches of logic there, pretty obvious I think. I feel that constant change is pretty much a universal "law" if there is one.

Now the whacky human/subjective element: People (and animals) are born with an very deeply imbedded instintual intelligence which causes them to be full of egocentric self-importance, it's needed for survival/natural selection. This is expressed as desire to reproduce and fear of death (reproducing and living to continue reproducing are our primary functions in life). This is also pretty evident/logical.

By fearing death, we are clinging to our own egos/lives, which of course eventually comes to pass and the energy/molecules are transformed into something else, as is the mode of the universe (of which we are a part).

Fearing death is not accepting that we will die, which is expressed as a desire to live forever, which goes against the universal law of constant change, which dictates nothing is forever. Therefore, fear of death is actually a lack of acceptance of the universal law of constant change. Everything changes, it's part of reality, and a person's own desire to retreat from change is what causes their suffering.

The universe is a lot like a river of flowing change (which I think is extremely beautiful). Change is neither good or bad, we may interpret it as such, but this is a subjective interpretation and not at all an accurate reflection of reality. The universe is simply flowing and changing and it does so independent of our opinions of whether or not this is a good or bad thing, it simply IS and does not adhere to our limited human notions whatsoever. We must not mistake our personal interpretations of reality for reality itself.

So we are left with a choice: Do we go with the flow of change and realize that ultimately it's above our personified notions of good/bad (accept the universal law of which we are an expression)? Or do we go against the flow of change and curse the very fabric of space/time itself which created us (knowing ultimately we are still subject to change and can do absolutely nothing about it)? Sadly, I feel most people go with the latter, but not by choice, it's by design (we are who we evolved to be, no more, no less). Therefore, I feal that fearing death is the natural thing to do, but it's not the only alternative, it can be overcome.

Going with the flow of change leads to acceptance, fearlessness, and happiness. Going against it causes fear and suffering. Suffering is a direct result of not accepting the universal law of change.

I hope thus far I haven't said anything that is the least bit illogical cuz now I'm going to go a little deeper into what I think is the cause of human suffering (subjective bullshit alert, just an interpretation)...

Humans are egocentric freaks. This inherent perception of selfness is the root of desire. Think about it, if there was no concept of ego/self, where would the desire come from and who/what would it serve? Egocentricity spawns desire. No logical leap there I think. Desire (spawned by ego) causes suffering because it causes people to go against the grain of universal change. If we had no desire, we would simply accept everything as it comes and we wouldn't suffering from the idea of death (an expression of the law of change).

Fear of death is the desire to live forever - which is a lack of acceptance of change. Desire is spawned from egocentricity and is the direct result of this egocentricity.

Therefore: ("->" is "leads to")
Ego -> Desire -> Retreating from Change -> Fear/Suffering
so..
Ego -> Fear/Suffering

Self creates desire which causes us to go against the flow of change which causes suffering. Ego -> Suffering.

If what I'm saying can be true/applicable to the human condition then it must stand to reason that negation of self -> less desire -> more acceptance of change -> no fear/suffering, and for me this totally worked and lead me to be the happy/fearless bastard that I am today. Could this work for everyone? Probably not, it's a turning about of the deepest seat of consciousness which houses the most primary/instinctual notions of selfhood and takes a great deal of effort and concentration, but it's totally possible and totally worth the effort cuz it is completely liberating. However, for a lot of people I think the idea of this death of "self" (letting go of their own inherent instincts) is too weird/scary to consider seriously. However, many people have done this already without thinking about it, for some people, selflessness becomes a natural state they fall into at a certain point in their life for whatever reason, typically between 18-23 if it's going to happen. 20 seems to the magic age I keep hearing from others, I was 19. I've had many many many people explain their experiences of selflessness and spritual experiences of melding with their environment and all of them speak of it like it is the most inspiring and insightful experience they ever have and love that I can explain their experience back to them in a logical way, as I have attempted to do here. An archer becomes one with his target, a pilot becomes one with his plane, a musician becomes one with his instrument. We all do this already to some extent, it's just that for some people (like me and those close to me in real life) it's become a philosophy and a way of life which has enriched us more than we ever thought possible.

I realize this may seem quite whacky to a lot of people. It's just a way of looking as the human condition and forever escaping the fear of death which plagues us by our very design. I realize this is not for everyone, but I also realize that many many people live their whole lives like this, not clinging to notions of self, not fearing death, and accepting reality as it comes without question. This is, imo, true liberation and true happiness. I don't think I've said anything at all illogical or outlandish, after all we ARE our environment and in the deepest sense we are not the partitioned egos which instinct insists we are, we are an expression of the universe, no more, no less, we are short-lived energy patterns which will soon return to the earth which spawned us. Is a tree really separate from the soil from which it is composed? It's the same elements, same energy - and so are we. Why must we be so egocentric and segregate ourselves from the universe and it's flow of constant change? We don't have to.

muwahah..

Satori
 
Originally posted by Snoogans
i do think that we are just animals too... but sometimes theres just something that makes it seem like we are so much more... and that we have spirits that move on...

... an idea which is a result of instinctual egocentricity which, above all else, gives us the desire to live forever and the propensity to create myths to further that end.

Satori
 
For those of you that claim not to fear death, please respond to this situation.

You're on an airplane that is experiencing technical problems. The pilot comes on the radio and tells all the passengers that the plane will surely crash, and to prepare for it. What is going through your head at that moment? Are you afraid, feeling true fear in the pit of your stomach, or are you calmly leaning over to the passenger next to you and telling them that we should not be afraid right now because we are simply animals with a propensity to be egocentric?

I ask this question because I think that fearing death and accepting our insignifigance in the universe are two different things. We fear death because it is instinctual to do so. Please let me know what you think.
 
Originally posted by dune_666
You're on an airplane that is experiencing technical problems. The pilot comes on the radio and tells all the passengers that the plane will surely crash, and to prepare for it. What is going through your head at that moment? Are you afraid, feeling true fear in the pit of your stomach, or are you calmly leaning over to the passenger next to you and telling them that we should not be afraid right now because we are simply animals with a propensity to be egocentric?

Having faced death on 2 ocassions I can assure you that I would feel acceptance, thankfulness for my life, and a horrible bitter painful compassion for those I would leave behind.

In the event of a plane crash I would be scared shitless of getting injured, as I am completely terrified of physical pain/injury.


I ask this question because I think that fearing death and accepting our insignifigance in the universe are two different things. We fear death because it is instinctual to do so. Please let me know what you think.

I think you have a totally valid point, and whatever is right is what makes sense to you and helps you make sense of it. (note: I have no problems with anyone believing anything that doesn't scare the shit out of them, hehe)

To me they are kind of the same, but I can see what you mean, and I think that's a really great point.

Satori
 
Originally posted by dune_666
For those of you that claim not to fear death, please respond to this situation.

You're on an airplane that is experiencing technical problems. The pilot comes on the radio and tells all the passengers that the plane will surely crash, and to prepare for it. What is going through your head at that moment? Are you afraid, feeling true fear in the pit of your stomach, or are you calmly leaning over to the passenger next to you and telling them that we should not be afraid right now because we are simply animals with a propensity to be egocentric?


I would be sad for the few good friends who won't ever get to see me again. I'd wish I could say one last thing to them and I'd hope that they'll remember me with a smile.
 
Originally posted by Opet
Godisanathiest, I actually find being old and not being able to do half the things I used to be able to do more terrifying than actually dying or how I'm going to die. I look at elders and I'm scared to be that weak.

I suppose when you're old and nearing your last days, you can look back on your life and smile about all that you've accomplished... or you could dwell on all of the dreams and goals you've never achieved.

I don't know which I'd do if/when I'm old, but it would probably be a little of both.

I have often thought that suicide (possibly physician assisted) would be a good idea once I reach an age where I feel I can't accomplish any more, or after my life becomes misery and suffering due to a terminal illness. But... I don't know. I mean, life only lasts so long, while death is forever. No matter how lonely, difficult, or frustrating my life may be, I only get one life to live and then I'll be dead forever. I may as well make the most of it while it lasts because no matter how much it may suck, it's short in the grand scheme of things. That thought's kept me going so far. Perhaps when I'm older I'll find something I enjoy doing... writing perhaps.

Heck, I'd rather just deal with the pain and try doing something creative or intelligent with my time than lie in bed all day long saying "oh, damn, my cancer-infested kidney sure is sore today". As long as I have my eyes and hands, I can do something.

What I really don't like is the thought of losing my stream of conciousness. I mean, even if I'm 75 years old and lying in bed sick, I'd still be thinking about things and hopefully also talking to people. If souls/spirits exist, maybe that stream of conciousness would last beyond my death... I would hope so... I can't imagine there just being nothing.... I don't want that. I'm not sure what happens when a person dies... nobody is sure... but I fear that it is probably just nothing. Not black... just nothing.
 
Opet - thats basically what I'm talking about. Its not the actuall process of dying I fear, just knowing beforehand, and the suffering I could go through. A bit like the fear of the unkown, but I'm pretty sure I'd preffer not 2 know even if I had the choice.
A problem I have with suicide. Ok, if you die, you normally don't have the choice so its not as if your deliberately abandoning the people you leave behind. If you commit suicide you KNOW what you are doing and have a good idea of how much pain you will cause.... thinking of it in that way is selfish, I know, but still why do people do that?????
 
originally posted by dune_666
You're on an airplane that is experiencing technical problems. The pilot comes on the radio and tells all the passengers that the plane will surely crash, and to prepare for it. What is going through your head at that moment? Are you afraid, feeling true fear in the pit of your stomach, or are you calmly leaning over to the passenger next to you and telling them that we should not be afraid right now because we are simply animals with a propensity to be egocentric?



...... neither..... i wouldnt be afraid becuase when you are afraid you cant help people... and i would be helping people... i wouldnt be panicking(panicing??) like an asshole .... i could care less if i die or if anything bad happens to me... but other people do care... so i enjoy helping people rather then not
 
Originally posted by rogue27
I would be sad for the few good friends who won't ever get to see me again. I'd wish I could say one last thing to them and I'd hope that they'll remember me with a smile.

Holy shit. At the risk of sounding cheesy, this statement totally blew me away and reinforced my faith in the inherent intelligence of humans to overcome their intense egocentric fears. :)
 
Originally posted by Mikael is God
...... neither..... i wouldnt be afraid becuase when you are afraid you cant help people... and i would be helping people... i wouldnt be panicking(panicing??) like an asshole .... i could care less if i die or if anything bad happens to me... but other people do care... so i enjoy helping people rather then not

selflessness has many ways of being explained, thanks for providing one that is simple, logical, and easily understood. My faith in humanity is still increasing.. :)
 
Originally posted by godisanathiest
Opet - thats basically what I'm talking about. Its not the actuall process of dying I fear, just knowing beforehand, and the suffering I could go through. A bit like the fear of the unkown, but I'm pretty sure I'd preffer not 2 know even if I had the choice.
A problem I have with suicide. Ok, if you die, you normally don't have the choice so its not as if your deliberately abandoning the people you leave behind. If you commit suicide you KNOW what you are doing and have a good idea of how much pain you will cause.... thinking of it in that way is selfish, I know, but still why do people do that?????

I agree, suicide is very selfish. However, if it is done to relieve intense suffering which will surely end in death in a short time anyway, I don't have a problem with it and I feel it is more humane than keeping people alive just to suffer (that is, if they so choose of course, no one choice is right for everyone). If someone close to me was suffering and chose to die early, I would support them in their decision and do whatever I could to make their final hours happy, clear, and fearless.

Satori
 
Originally posted by Satori


I agree, suicide is very selfish. However, if it is done to relieve intense suffering which will surely end in death in a short time anyway, I don't have a problem with it and I feel it is more humane than keeping people alive just to suffer (that is, if they so choose of course, no one choice is right for everyone). If someone close to me was suffering and chose to die early, I would support them in their decision and do whatever I could to make their final hours happy, clear, and fearless.

Satori

This is too general a statement (at least in my mind). I have never contemplated suicide, but I am very close to someone who has attempted twice. I agree with the "close to death" part, but not the selfishness.

For those whose "pain" is too great to bear - this "pain" should be defined before it is "OK". The type of people Dr. Kevorkian was assisting were terminally ill patients who were suffering through real and identifyable pain. In those cases, I don't see an act of selfishness. But what about someone who stresses over what others consider everyday life? Is that pain the same as the terminally ill? Quite different - a mental anquish. But to that individual, they can love like the rest, but this "pain" is unbearable to them. So is it selfish not to think of others and choose to die early? I expect only those who have lived through this, or been very close to a person who has can really grasp this.

Suicide is cruel - the murdered is the murderer. But their fear of death is no different than anybody elses. EVERYTHING in life has a priority. To those who take their lives, their priority was not to deal with the situation facing them. Death became the "easy" way out. Suicide takes many forms. It can be viewed as selfish (though I tend to disagree with this in most cases), can be a cop-out (not enough back-bone to face the challenges of life), or can actually be the end of a long period of suffering (as with the Kevorkian patients).

To watch someone contemplate dying because they view themselves in a distorted fashion is a scary thing. You must throw away all logic in even beginning to understand what that person must be thinking. And, let us not forget that many mental illnesses, such as depression, lead to suicides.

Why is it that teenage girls are #1 in suicides? Society paints a picture of how they should look (and other things too), and they then set goals which are unreachable. When they find it too difficult to reach these standards (which are not attainable), they take their lives.

If someone else here has, or is close to someone who has either attempted or committed suicide, I would like to hear from them. What are your views on the weight and fear of death?
 
Ok, I didn't finish reading the entire thread, but something Satori said made me write what I'm about to. On the first page of the thread Satori said something along the lines of "what was so scary about not being born. Death is just like that" Well the reason I fear, or rather don't look forward to dath, is that I have tasted life and it's fun...Death will, in my opinion, be very boring.
I probably won't be aware of it than, but I'm aware of it now, therefore it's scary.

I don't really believe in the after life, but there is one thing about our exsitance that puzzels me. We are essantially a pile of chemical elements arranged in a certain order; roughly, that is true. Now, try taking the same elements and mixing them together. You sure as hell won't get a human being, or anything else living for that matter. Now lets look at the Frankestain scenario. Taking a dead body and running electricity through it won't exactly bring it back to life. So what's missing? I'm not an expert on human annatomy and all that stuff, but honestly, the way we, and all other animals, are constructed it doesn't seem like it would work just by itself. So I believe there is something that we are not aware of. So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know what the hell is gonna happen when I die, and I like it like that...Knowing what will happen would make life itself less interesting.
 
Originally posted by Despot
Now, try taking the same elements and mixing them together. You sure as hell won't get a human being, or anything else living for that matter.

Why not? Let's say we had the ability to artificially manufacture male and female sex cells, we unite them and then plant them in a uterus (which is how humans are made). Will that make a human being? Of course it will, why wouldn't it? The basis of life is built into the fabric of the universe itself and not something that exists outside of or in spite of the universe.

We are the atoms which compose us, no more, no less. I know it seems wild how something a cool/complex as life could be generated from matter in organization, but I also think it's pretty wild how computers work and do everything from entertain us to predict the weather to playing chess at the highest level - all with just a very long series of 1's and 0's. I don't really see a difference, except the fact that humans are composed of many many more elements than just 1's and 0's and so it's no wonder that they are infinitely more complex and amazing than computers.

Satori
 
Originally posted by metalmancpa

Why is it that teenage girls are #1 in suicides? Society paints a picture of how they should look (and other things too), and they then set goals which are unreachable. When they find it too difficult to reach these standards (which are not attainable), they take their lives.

I think a lot of teen suicides are carried out without the awareness of permanence. Done to punish the people whom they feel neglected or abused by...often accompanied by the wish to see those they have been injured by mourn them. I suppose the reaction they seek is often obtained, just too bad they won't be there to enjoy it.
 
I don't think suicide is selfish when sum1 is terminally ill. Its just when sum1 commits suicide all the people left are thinking - "why didn't he talk 2 me about it?- I could have helped" then they start thinking it's their fault, they're bad friends etc. I never actually said suicide was selfish, just that view cos all it thinks about is the people left behind, not the actuall person.
Apparently teenage girls are #1 - teenagers have lots of hormones - intense feelings, girls are less able to express them through violence as boys do, so the violence is usually inflicted on themselves as either suicide or self harm.
 
Originally posted by Satori
Let's say we had the ability to artificially manufacture male and female sex cells, we unite them and then plant them. Will that make a human being? Of course it will, why wouldn't it? The basis of life is built into the fabric of the universe itself...
When I was...say 6 or so, I was amazed when I was told that a soul enters a fetus just as it’s being born. Now I see HOW amazing that really would be. Sometimes I think of my parents planting these stories in my head and wish I could go back to that time and say, "Why are you telling me this?! You don't KNOW that's how it happens!"

Originally posted by Despot
On the first page of the thread Satori said something along the lines of "what was so scary about not being born. Death is just like that"...the reason I fear, or rather don't look forward to death, is that I have tasted life and it's fun...
I was trying to say that in my earlier post in some way also. While I'm alive, I may fear for when I’m gone. Obviously when I'm gone, there will most likely be nothing. Sounds fucked up, but some feelings I can’t control, no matter what my mind knows.

Originally posted by rogue_27
What I really don't like is the thought of losing my stream of consciousness.
Yeah, I’ve that wouldn’t be good. Alzheimer’s Disease...what if it’s like a dream/nightmare. Nothing makes sense and nothing seems real. Always confused. My grandmother was senile. Asked my Dad one time she visited, “Who are you?” Maybe you forget all the things that plague some minds when old or “your time is near”...?

I think, not with all, but I think that with age, these instinctive fears of death that most people have, fade away/come to terms with. I’ve known elders that just say that they’re ready to go. My mother used to say, “Yeah, it’s about time to move on to the next life.” Heh. Where are you now, Ma?! Granted there are different reasons for this person or that, but it gives me the feeling that after living a life for 60 years or so, you’ve just plain had enough of it...?

Originally posted by Mikael_Is...
There is no such thing as a soul that moves on. Our soul is the knowledge built up in our brain.
As much as I hated your abrupt/harsh approach to the conversation, this line is something I’ve never dwelled on before. It sort of makes sense...?

My best friend has...I used to call it "threatened," me many times with thoughts of suicide. He's said 2 or 3 times that he doesn't have the "balls" to go through with it. I read somewhere that if someone is really serious about it (like they know) they don't really say the words. They just do it. Whereas someone who says they're thinking of it, is just looking for attention that's lacking in their lives. I think it was a metal stress that he was going through though, because it's passed. He quit his job in the middle of a breakdown practically and told me to just get out of his life before he fucked me up too much. I told him to forget it of course. I wasn't going to turn and run because he was so disturbed then. That was about 2 years ago. He's different now. Maybe he really is happier, maybe he's just faking it so I won't notice. I can't believe it though. He went through that much mental stress before he even tried to change it.

Lynn

Plyng: ... You are beyond all help. Dancing into the void!
 
Originally posted by luke
I think a lot of teen suicides are carried out without the awareness of permanence. Done to punish the people whom they feel neglected or abused by...often accompanied by the wish to see those they have been injured by mourn them. I suppose the reaction they seek is often obtained, just too bad they won't be there to enjoy it.

Indeed.
 
Originally posted by Opet
When I was...say 6 or so, I was amazed when I was told that a soul enters a fetus just as it’s being born. Now I see HOW amazing that really would be. Sometimes I think of my parents planting these stories in my head and wish I could go back to that time and say, "Why are you telling me this?! You don't KNOW that's how it happens!"

Yea, I know eh! Parents should not be telling their kids such things (imo) cuz it can cloud their reasoning later on in life. Kids are much too delicate and impressionable to handle theology, most of which is pretty whacked/sick (imo).

I was trying to say that in my earlier post in some way also. While I'm alive, I may fear for when I’m gone. Obviously when I'm gone, there will most likely be nothing. Sounds fucked up, but some feelings I can’t control, no matter what my mind knows.

There is no need to attempt to resolve the contradiction, to do so is to limit yourself to one side of the fence when you may in fact be sitting on both at the same time. Instinctually you fear death, but intellectually you do not. Just be thankful you haven't been so twisted by mythology that you fear it on an intellectual level as well cuz that is not pleasant at all, it can be quite incapacitating actually (just had to throw a little sacreliege in there as I have a reputation to uphold and I don't want to disappoint anyone, muwhaha).

Satori :)