Originally posted by Tribal
Point out one thing the bible says not to do that hasn't brought more suffering to the world. Just one.
Only one?
Masturbation.
This was heavily driven into me and my classmates at a very early age. It actually relieves suffering for everyone, especially teenage boys and it is normal, natural, healthy, and even somewhat necessary (some assert) for proper adolescent sexual development. It's also present in nature, many species of animals masturbate (not just our fellow 99% genetically identical primate cousins), so it's not some human-conceived perversion which is a sign that satan has taken ownership of your soul.
Inversely, here's one thing that the bible suggests (some says "insists") we do which has brought more suffering to the world: using physical pain to discipline our children. Children aren't dogs and deserve better than this (imo). Just one more example of how the word of god conflicts with modern ethics, principles, and LAWS.
Of course in other parts of the world the bible is used to justify horrible atrocities such as cutting off parts of a person's anatomy for something as silly as speeding in traffic. While you can assert that these people aren't follwing the bible's teachings they in fact are, because the bible can be interpreted to mean and justify just about anything and everything, even genocide (and it has, as I'm sure you are aware). It's all in the interpretation and I feel that something with such a great potential to be used by humans to abuse/exploit each other is simply not healthy. Of course, I'm sure you that you feel strongly that you have the "correct" interpretation of the bible and like others you pick and choose which "truths" to follow and which to dismiss, but you are no more right in your interpretation than those idiot savages mutilating each other or those who have commited genocide and tortured their brothers and sisters in the name of christ. If you have a weak stomach for the grusome, please skip over the remainder of this paragraph as you will find this extremely disheartening.................. Reading a book once a long time ago, I found a picture in there that turned my stomach and made me grief sicken for months. It was a very well carved 10 inch crucifix of the horribly and painfully crucified jesus with a cork screw thing sticking out the bottom. Oh, a wine opener? Yes, that's what I thought, until I read the caption below the picture. It was a torture device which was driven into the bodies of "sinners" who were believed to have been taken captive by satan. Typically, it is now theorized, these people were the mentally handicapped who really had less control over their words and actions. This form of "spiritual treatment" sometimes lasted for months and often lead to a slow grusome death from bloodloss or untreated infections. Man that's sick. I'm not suggesting that this torture was the result of the bible, I'm suggesting it is the result of humans mistreating each other by using the bible as a TOOL to justify their evil ends (which is how the bible was used thoughout much of history and to this day).
But this crap is not at all relevent. I'm not saying the bible is wrong from a moral/ethical standpoint in the peace/love teachings, I'm saying it's wrong from a factual one, which is quite a different thing. Let's not blur the issues. I'm also saying most of the practical use of the bible involves exploiting and mistreating individuals and society, something which is yet to be refuted cuz it is so obvious. I'm delighted that you aren't living in guilt/fear, but a lot are, and it's these people I'm talking about, not you or any one person specifically.
And one more thing boy, it is far beyond you to insult how I raise my child, don't cross that line.
Boy? Where I come from we say "b'y" (pronouced "buy") Hehehe.
I will inform you Tribal that it is my right to express whatever opinions I please on this board and there's nothing you can do to stop me or anyone else in that regard. If you cannot accept this fact then that is entirely your issue, not mine. This is the internet where your personal rules of conduct do no apply to the collective. You can request (or insist) as you have, but the answer it simply no. If you didn't get that, I will repeat myself: NO.
Aside from this bullshit attempt of yours to make me seem cruel and unethical, it was NOT my intent to "insult how you raise your child". I was merely stating an opinion of mine like any other. I expected that you would have the wisdom and maturity to realize that instead jumping to the paranoid conclusion that it was a personal attack directed at you. I did not even know you have children, you are most likely completely aware of this fact and chose to interpret what I said as a personal attack of your own accord. I am not at all guilty of the charge of insulting how you raise your child and I think that was a rather low twist of you to suggest this. Therefore, my answer to your request is no. I can promise you that I will not personally attack you, but I will not promise to not state my viewpoint on this issue merely because you find it offensive. You have no right to tell me which opinions I cannot express and I respectfully request that the next time you feel the urge to do this that you take note that you do not control the content of the internet. Any further requests/insists from you in this regard will be ignored cuz I've already said all I'm going to say about this.
I will not retreat from saying that I feel that putting religion into the innocent, impressionable, and fragile minds of children makes me sick and that it horrifies me greatly. I state this as a person who had religion very subtley put into him and the result was much less than helpful or happy. I also know many others like me (dream theatre even wrote a song about this) and I feel it's just not worth the risk to teach children this punishment/reward system of such dire importance and consequence. I feel it is too big of a burden for the fragile minds of children to have to endure. I also don't agree with teaching children that there is a boogey man in the closet that is going to "get them" if they fail to go to bed on time or eat their broccoli, and I see this as the same form of counterproductive psychological terrorism as scaring the living shit out of kids with the old lake o' fire bullshit. I feel we've evolved beyond the need to control people though their fears and egocentric desires. I strongly feel that people deserve better than this. I think it's great you and your daughter are taking it so well and I wish you much success and happiness in this venture, but don't assume that everyone does, and don't assume that it won't have ill effects later on in life. What if you daughter grows up and falls in love with a nice man who is a staunch athiest with the intellect to sway her? Can you safely assert right now that your religion won't cause *any* problems in any way? Independent of your opinion, christianity (the religion) has caused a great deal of grief to a great many people throughout history. Indeed, it's still causing grief. My nephew for example was absolutely horrified by christianity when he was very young and was having terrible nightmares and terrible guilt which interferred with his life and happiness greatly. I suffered the same fate when I was his age. Fortunately I was able to relieve him of this burden of guilt, sin, and the potential for eternal suffering in the deep dark pits of hell which his school teachers had done a wonderful job of making him absolutely terrified of not believing. Imagine that, fear of a belief which you are even afraid not to believe. If that's not the most twisted form of intellectual child abuse (imo, no offense to you personally) I've ever heard then I have no idea what is. Unfortunately for me I suffered with such irrational and disabling fears (in varying degrees) until I was 12 and no one helped me figure it out, I had to do it all by myself with nothing by my own mind and my own trust in myself against everyone and everything telling me I was wrong and that I would "burn in hell" for my newfound spirituality which was fulfilling me in every way.
Now that you understand my reasons for feeling as I do about this I'm sure you don't think I'm just out to wreak havoc or insult you personally as you have suggested.
If you find me so offensive then I suggest you not read any more of my posts and unless you reply to me I will make it a note to no longer reply to your posts. This way I get to keep my right to speak my mind and you get to keep your right to not read it and everyone is happy.
I know you firmly believe that your faith is strong and that it cannot be shaken but I've had other people think this as well and continue to dialog with me who ended up having their faith completely crumble soon after, so don't make any assumptions that what I might say will not cause you to question yourself at the deepest level. Logic can be much stronger than faith for some people.
I don't feel that dialoging with me will be very healthy or beneficial to you personally since you have the tendency to get offended by the opinions of others.
We can let this end right now, or we can continue, the choice is entirely yours my friend
I wish you peace and success in your travels through life.
Satori
You're just the most compromising person I know (well, sort of know...kinda...)
OK, as you were...
